interesting thread

Morgoth

I appreciate your input, but I seriously can't do more than 2 workouts p/week...strictly! For personal reasons...not because I don't want to. So I'm sticking to my guns!

Slaps

MS is a good option, If I drop sets I will go MS except for Bench & Squat (Not practical IMO, with my setup).

Thanks anyway guys!
 
<div>
(Fausto @ Jun. 20 2007,09:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Morgoth

I appreciate your input, but I seriously can't do more than 2 workouts p/week...strictly! For personal reasons...not because I don't want to. So I'm sticking to my guns!

Slaps

MS is a good option, If I drop sets I will go MS except for Bench &amp; Squat (Not practical IMO, with my setup).

Thanks anyway guys!</div>
Didn`t know that, sorry. You could try doing AM-upper, PM-lower so as not to blow-out in a single workout due to volume, but I think you know how to best adjust your schedule. Cheers;)
 
No probs Morgoth.

Last holidays (December) I did am/pm with some success, but in between family is not always a thouroughly discipliuned approach!
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I have some thoughts here. From a lot of the hypertrophy studies that I have seen, the legs are frequently studied for muscle growth. Bryan and others have commented on how their legs seem to benefit from higher reps -- beit squats or whatever. Do you think there may be something to this?

Also, I'm currently doing only one exercise per bodypart per workout. I think I could do 2x15, 3x10, and maybe 4x5. Should it be worth a try?
 
I think it's worth a try.

Studies or no studies...there is definatly something that works about volume training.

Within reason of course!
 
Another point to consider regarding studies is that there be a conclusion based on averages.

There seems to be a belief by some people on this board that optimal volume differs by individual. So even though the average volume may have to be at least 30, for some people 20 may be better as they require less volume than the average person?

The other point is that many upper body excercises share the same muscles, so then this gets quite confusing as it depends how much a muscle is used in an excercise. And this may differ by person, e.g. some people feel a bb bench works the chest, but some people get very little chest work from the bb bench.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 06 2007,13:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">bump for great discussion..plus I would love to see Dans response to the above post.</div>
As far as I am aware there isn't any study that directly measured the amount of reps/contractions needed to cause hypertrophy itself. But, there are papers that have analyzed the data from many studies and then given an average, I believe this was already pointed out by someone else.

Recently Kenneth Baldwin and his research group released an abstract of a study they did in which they looked at the number of reps needed to ward off atrophy during an unloading period. But this doesn't tell us much as they didn't measure growth (or rather haven't released results meauring growth as this would be the next logical step in studying this). Earlier this year I had a discussion with Kenneth and he told me of the study and their goal was to measure the reps needed to kick off the highest molecular responses for several markers that are changed during hypertrophy signalling. As of that time he made it clear that during a 4 set protocol, 5 reps each set saw the lowest signalling, 7 reps was higher than 5 and 10 reps was only slightly higher than 7.

Now understand this was on rats and it included maximal contractions lasting 3 secs each (1 sec isometric, 1 sec concentric, 1 sec eccentric) and each rep was seperated by a 20 second rest. This in my mind really points to the fact that one must do enough each workout but doing more doesn't equate to getting more and in fact doing too much very well might attenuate the response.

With that said let me open up the discussion and ask the obvious, how does changing the absolute load change the response? In other words does 1. working submaximally change the amount of work needed and if so by how much? and 2. Will increasing the frequency of each workout help?

I now release the floor back to the gentleman in the blue tie
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I just found this:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
&quot;But I Don't Wanna Get Big&quot;

If I had a buck for every time a woman said to me they weren't interested in strength training because they would get too big, I'd have $136 dollars. (Hey, I don't like to exaggerate.)

For those of you with wives or girlfriends who refuse to stray from the pink dumbbells and aerobics classes, this study examined arm size in 20 women after a 10-week strength training program consisting of either 3 sets of 4-6RM on one arm and 1 set of 18-24 RM on the other arm.



At the conclusion of the program, there was no difference in arm size, but the strength gains were much greater in the heavy resistance trained arm. So next time you hear the tired old argument against strength training, you can wave this data in their face. [14]

</div>
(http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1669557)


It goes against the study about the fiber types that we all remember..
 
Ha, I'll have to show that my GF.  I've always wanted to tell her, &quot;You know, since it's just so easy to get huge.&quot;, everytime she complains about how she is going to get too big.  Maybe that'll keep her butt in the gym.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Results
No relationship could be found between frequency of training and the increase per day in muscle cross sectional area. When the intensity was plotted against the rate of increase, a weak tendency was found for the rate to increase with increasing intensity. The highest rates of increase tended to occur around 75% of 1RM. When volume was plotted against the rate of increase, greater gains in muscle mass were seen initially with increasing volume while there were diminishing returns as the volume increased further. The highest rates of increase tended to occur with 30-60 repetitions per session.</div>

ok, this just seems strange considering that i thought progressive LOAD was a main determining factor in hypertrophy. i knew volume of course had a role of course, but is anyone else as confused as me?
sad.gif


so NOW increasing volume is the key while sticking to 75% of your 1RM? (to a certain level of course).
rock.gif


and also 2 sessions per muscle group is just as good as 3? ARRRRGH! LOL

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Training Implications and Recommendations: For your typical &quot;dynamic external resistance&quot;, recommendations are given for &quot;Moderate load slow-speed training&quot;, &quot;Conventional hypertrophy training&quot;, and &quot;Eccentric (ecc) overload training&quot;. These three modes are denoted as suitable for beginners, novice-well trained, and advanced-elite, respectively. For the &quot;Conventional hypertrophy training&quot; for the novice to the well trained, they recommend an 8-10RM load (75-80% 1RM), with 8-10 reps to failure or near failure, 1-3 sets per exercise, progression from 1–2 to 3–6 sets total per muscle group, moderate velocity (1-2 seconds for each CON and ECC), 60-180 seconds rest between sets, and 2-3 sessions per muscle group per week.</div>

okay, this is almost EXACTLY what i learned in my Certificate III in Fitness, that 8-10/12 rep range, to failure, progressive load, and increase volume over time. but i sorta threw that almost out the window considering the other research i've done on all this (HST studies).
plus increasing volume, is that designed to increase microtrauma, or increase work capacity/performance/resistance to fatigue?
rock.gif
? this is EXACTLY the stuff i was talking about in a previous post a long time ago regarding what the DETERMINANT of hypertrophy was: increased work of the muscle, or increased load (regardless of total volume).

AHHHH PLEEEEEEEEEASE BRYAN PLEEEEEEASE COME TO THIS FORUM AND SOLVE OUR (or MY lol) WOES!!!! PLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!!!!!!!

i really wanna talk about this more, this whole failure argument, and volume and intensity. can i still trust HST? i just honestly don't know what to THINK anymore there's so much yaagaa!!! whatever that means!

thanks for the talk guys!
 
<div>
(_Simon_ @ Aug. 08 2007,22:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Results
No relationship could be found between frequency of training and the increase per day in muscle cross sectional area. When the intensity was plotted against the rate of increase, a weak tendency was found for the rate to increase with increasing intensity. The highest rates of increase tended to occur around 75% of 1RM. When volume was plotted against the rate of increase, greater gains in muscle mass were seen initially with increasing volume while there were diminishing returns as the volume increased further. The highest rates of increase tended to occur with 30-60 repetitions per session.</div>

ok, this just seems strange considering that i thought progressive LOAD was a main determining factor in hypertrophy. i knew volume of course had a role of course, but is anyone else as confused as me?
sad.gif


so NOW increasing volume is the key while sticking to 75% of your 1RM?  (to a certain level of course).
rock.gif


and also 2 sessions per muscle group is just as good as 3? ARRRRGH! LOL

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Training Implications and Recommendations: For your typical &quot;dynamic external resistance&quot;, recommendations are given for &quot;Moderate load slow-speed training&quot;, &quot;Conventional hypertrophy training&quot;, and &quot;Eccentric (ecc) overload training&quot;. These three modes are denoted as suitable for beginners, novice-well trained, and advanced-elite, respectively. For the &quot;Conventional hypertrophy training&quot; for the novice to the well trained, they recommend an 8-10RM load (75-80% 1RM), with 8-10 reps to failure or near failure, 1-3 sets per exercise, progression from 1–2 to 3–6 sets total per muscle group, moderate velocity (1-2 seconds for each CON and ECC), 60-180 seconds rest between sets, and 2-3 sessions per muscle group per week.</div>

okay, this is almost EXACTLY what i learned in my Certificate III in Fitness, that 8-10/12 rep range, to failure, progressive load, and increase volume over time. but i sorta threw that almost out the window considering the other research i've done on all this (HST studies).
plus increasing volume, is that designed to increase microtrauma, or increase work capacity/performance/resistance to fatigue?
rock.gif
? this is EXACTLY the stuff i was talking about in a previous post a long time ago regarding what the DETERMINANT of hypertrophy was: increased work of the muscle, or increased load (regardless of total volume).

AHHHH PLEEEEEEEEEASE BRYAN PLEEEEEEASE COME TO THIS FORUM AND SOLVE OUR (or MY lol)  WOES!!!! PLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!!!!!!!

i really wanna talk about this more, this whole failure argument, and volume and intensity. can i still trust HST? i just honestly don't know what to THINK anymore there's so much yaagaa!!! whatever that means!

thanks for the talk guys!</div>
i cant give you the exact answers you are looking for but this is the workout that i came up with to bring together and optimise some of the training routines out there.

first off i train each bodypart once per week,this allows me to be sure i have &quot;no less&quot; than &quot;enough&quot; volume in a given workout.i find this type of training leads to more strength gains working near your max's.

secondly i use high reps to low reps,which makes sure i cover the rep ranges needed for varying muscle groups. which i believe is important.

thirdly i train at around 90-95%rm(the first week block)(failure the second week block) to ensure full recruitment where possible.as there are some studies that encourage training near to failure which ensures full recruitment(although this maybe incorrect).

and finally although somewhat linked to my third point is to use progressive load throughout the cycle.
i still believe progressive load is one of the most important aspects of hst even if the increments are used every 2 week block.

i also sd for a week or so after a cycle but mainly to give the joints a break from maxing out.recuperate and head back in.

this kind of program may not suit everyone,but i can say with confidence it works for me.

people grow using hst and people grow on a standard split so why not take the best bits from both and make them work?

l8rz.
 
This thread has really made me think.

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/korte.htm

The above link is Kortes power lifting program. Almost all of the lifting is below 70% of 1 rep max. Now I haven't tried this, but apparently it works. It's basically moderate frequency, high volume and low intensity at the start. Then a drop in volume and a little bit of intensity increasing. So I sort of doubt that 70% of 1 rep max is also required.
 
i'm not sure what lcars you mean when u say u train each bodypart once a week, to me that's not combining hst with the other research. it doesn't make sense haha sorry

anyways... BUMPITY BUMPITY BUMPBUMPBUMP!!!

tounge.gif
 
<div>
(_Simon_ @ Aug. 14 2007,09:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i'm not sure what lcars you mean when u say u train each bodypart once a week, to me that's not combining hst with the other research. it doesn't make sense haha sorry

anyways... BUMPITY BUMPITY BUMPBUMPBUMP!!!

tounge.gif
</div>
ok ill explain myself a little further

progressive load is a integral part of hst, which i use.

the reps schemes are a basic principle used in hst, which i use.

high frequency is an integral part of hst, this is one i dont use(at this time).

i have just chosen to incorperate high volume(per body part) at the moment.

its simple enough but just not to everyones taste
smile.gif
.
 
What ICARS is saying and doing makes perfect sense to me - yet if he was a beginer to low intermediate , I would try to talk him out of it in favor of 2-3x/wk per muscle group frequency. What I don't see entering into the equation ( and perhaps contributing to confusion) is that although a muscle is a muscle is a muscle ... there DOES seem to be something to the &quot;phases of a lifter's long term progression&quot; idea that HST doesn't account for (as far as I'm aware) . Kelly Baggett talks/writes about it in this link:


http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/pathofchampions.html



It seems &quot;in vogue&quot; to scoff at 1x/wk frequency per muscle group - yet at the elite levels of strength and bodybuilding there is an awfull lot of it going on , of course because theres a lot of steroids going on too - it makes it easy (and &quot;cool&quot;) to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I could be wrong , but I often think that if HST incorporated &quot;lifting age&quot; appropriate modifications - although the potential for &quot;noob confusion&quot; would skyrocket , the system itself would be enhanced.
I may perhaps spend too much time on the strength side of the equation and may be attempting to wed incompatible concepts , but for now I really think there is something worth looking into here that may solve a lot of hypertrophy issues I/we read so much of here. I almost suspect that as &quot;scientifically smarter&quot; than I - Bryan and the folks he seems to bounce ideas off is/are - this may already be being &quot;worked out&quot; for &quot;the book&quot;.
Thoughts?
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<div>
(RUSS @ Aug. 14 2007,12:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What ICARS is saying and doing makes perfect sense to me - yet if he was a beginer to low intermediate , I would try to talk him out of it in favor of 2-3x/wk per muscle group frequency. What I don't see entering into the equation ( and perhaps contributing to confusion) is that although a muscle is a muscle is a muscle ... there DOES seem to be something to the &quot;phases of a lifter's long term progression&quot; idea that HST doesn't account for (as far as I'm aware) . Kelly Baggett talks/writes about it in this link:


http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/pathofchampions.html



                      It seems &quot;in vogue&quot; to scoff at 1x/wk frequency per muscle group - yet at the elite levels of strength and bodybuilding there is an awfull lot of it going on , of course because theres a lot of steroids going on too - it makes it easy (and &quot;cool&quot;) to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
                      I could be wrong , but I often think that if HST incorporated &quot;lifting age&quot; appropriate modifications - although the potential for &quot;noob confusion&quot; would skyrocket , the system itself would be enhanced.
                      I may perhaps spend too much time on the strength side of the equation and may be attempting to wed incompatible concepts , but for now I really think there is something worth looking into here that may solve a lot of hypertrophy issues I/we read so much of here. I almost suspect that as &quot;scientifically smarter&quot; than I  - Bryan and the folks he seems to bounce ideas off is/are - this may already be being &quot;worked out&quot; for &quot;the book&quot;.
                       Thoughts?
smile.gif
</div>
i think you put it just right russ.

i love to apply scientific knowledge where possible but sometimes people apply too much, when infact all the facts arent in. no-one knows the &quot;best&quot; routine for everyone because there isnt one.

its again down to the individual and what ever keeps you motivated and ofcourse growing.
 
Well for me to chim in I think the best routine out there if you had to name one would be a 2 a week routine with slightly higher volume.

IE....LYLE'S bulking routine!

However I can get to the gym 3 times a week but not 4...so I stick with 3 times a week HST.

But IMO 5 sets of chest and back twice a week....is better than 3 sets three times a week...b/c of the several reasons such as Total Work...TUT...and Recovery plus the Right Now effect!

I have often thought of doing the not invogue thing..which would be

Upper

Lower

Upper split...never alternation and doing legs only once a week!
 
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