Iso's ARE necessary

IF you read the articles Bryan lays out an HST routine that has ISOs in it IIRC. My first cycle I was doing shrugs and curls and stuff, and I got the layout from this website.
The focus on compounds I think has come from people on the forum who have determined that compunds work better for them. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is trying to stop you from doing ISOs, they are just sharing their experience. Do what works for you!
 
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(Fausto @ Sep. 11 2007,22:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I mean definition, using isos to perfect it!

Fausto are you implying that you think ISO help with definition?</div>
Fausto are you implying that you think ISO help with definition?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto are you implying that you think ISO help with definition?</div>

I believe it to an extent, yes! But only once the bulk is there and nutrition is correct, it can help certain muscles becomemore salient or visible, but loss of body fat is the number one definer of all time.
 
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(soflsun @ Sep. 11 2007,21:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board.  I like the concept of HST, I am keeping a chart in the training log section, and I am taking pictures to chart my progress.  I should have titled the thread, &quot;Iso's ARE necessary for me IMO.&quot;  I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors. What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy...which is the opposite of why I am here.  I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight.  There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me.  I am not a power lifter nor do I plan to enter strength competitions for DL, Squats, Bench, etc.  So I will focus on a variety of exercises to build a well-rounded look.  I think another noteworthy point is that all newbies should not be automatically pushed into this direction of core only exercises, especially when the founder gives directions otherwise.</div>
your not an ahole. However, I am convinced that beginners should avoid iso until they have perfected the core exercises. If they have great form on the core movements, EVERY other movement, iso or compound, will be much easier.

For me, isolation movements are a waste of time. They are also a waste of time for those who are not interested n body building and more importantly don´t have the time to play around in the gym all day.
 
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(drpierredebs @ Sep. 12 2007,15:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(soflsun @ Sep. 11 2007,21:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board.  I like the concept of HST, I am keeping a chart in the training log section, and I am taking pictures to chart my progress.  I should have titled the thread, &quot;Iso's ARE necessary for me IMO.&quot;  I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors. What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy...which is the opposite of why I am here.  I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight.  There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me.  I am not a power lifter nor do I plan to enter strength competitions for DL, Squats, Bench, etc.  So I will focus on a variety of exercises to build a well-rounded look.  I think another noteworthy point is that all newbies should not be automatically pushed into this direction of core only exercises, especially when the founder gives directions otherwise.</div>
your not an ahole. However, I am convinced that beginners should avoid iso until they have perfected the core exercises. If they have great form on the core movements, EVERY other movement, iso or compound, will be much easier.

For me, isolation movements are a waste of time. They are also a waste of time for those who are not interested n body building and more importantly don´t have the time to play around in the gym all day.</div>
No question about it. Compounds are the way to go.

The problem is, people tend to do things they want to do. Possibly because of ego, possibly because they just have to hit those bicep exercises to fell right about their workouts.

There are plenty of reasons people do what they do even if they can't explain why.

I train HST, and it is amazing how many people I've pointed this way that couldn't connect with HST. Those guys are still training and doing it other ways.

My thinking... Anything they're doing in workouts, coupled with good food and rest should show results. Maybe not great results, but better than laying on the couch eating Tostitos, drinking beer and watching Oprah.
 
My 2c is that with compounds there is a mental factor and a physical one that will make you hit them a lot harder. You're not wearing yourself down with iso's or &quot;saving&quot; yourself for the compounds so you'll tend to hit the coupounds like they mean everything to you. In this way compounds could be considered to be &quot;better&quot; than iso's, but they're really two different camps.
Also, I found that as age deteriorated my energy, a shorter compound workout would entice me into the gym more than my prior grueling 1-1/2 hr workouts.
 
Everyone makes good points here.  I guess it really comes down the the individual; goals, lifestyle, energy, mental focus, ans several hundered more factors I'm sure.  I'm happy to get everyone's feedback!  Personally, I find the iso's to be a good supplement to the &quot;core&quot; exercises.  They give me a nice pumped felling and a burn that sometimes is difficult for me to feel in some of the smaller muscle groups during compounds.  
For me there is nothing quite like the deep bicep stretch and contraction of a DB inclune curl, the great pump and burn in my tri's from skulls, the ache in my traps and delts from shrugs and incline rear-delt raises, and the burn in my calves after a good set of raises.  I just wouldn't enjoy my workout if I couldn't have these small enjoyments amidst the main mass building compounds.
 
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(soflsun @ Sep. 13 2007,02:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> 
For me there is nothing quite like the deep bicep stretch and contraction of a DB inclune curl, the great pump and burn in my tri's from skulls, the ache in my traps and delts from shrugs and incline rear-delt raises, and the burn in my calves after a good set of raises.</div>
You can get almost the same effect with heavy weighted close-grip Pull-ups...(except of course the calves)
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(drpierredebs @ Sep. 13 2007,03:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You can get almost the same effect with heavy weighted close-grip Pull-ups...(except of course the calves)
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Even in the traps, tri's, and shoulders?  I will definitely give it a try.  What kind of grip do you use on those, and how close together should the hands be?
 
Yup, even in the traps.

As close as you want with grip, palms facing face.

VERY IMPORTANT:

1. Full extension of the arms at the hang position.
2. shrug, pull chest together, pull-up, shrug again, squeeze scapulas together.
3. Pull up to the nipple if possible, bring legs straight as far as possible ( this part if only if you are using no weight belt and if you want a a ripping ab workout.)
4. SLOWLY go down, hold at various point if you like, down to a full hang with the arms straight!
 
Something interesting from Kely Baggett

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">22. Volume and Recovery

The volume many bodybuilders use to stimulate fatigue and get a good pump, often interferes with the ability to progressively put weight on the bar, due to the level of fatigue created. (Thus explaining why the average powerlifter is both stronger then and often makes better long term gains muscle mass wise then a lot of bodybuilders, who do try and put weight on the bar consistently, but are often not as successful).</div>

Coincides with reasons why so much insist that newbies do mostly compounds, &quot;more pound for the buck&quot;, and no pump training.

About the chins - did not know you were not aware of the weighted close grip hands facing variety, kicks the living n on-sense out of the bi's, and is a substitute for not doing curls, although you can always superset them with one set of curls just for the helll of it!
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Iso's and compound exercises are both able to induce hypertrophy.

Compound exercises are more efficient to induce hypertrophy because you can train more muscle at a time.

HST method suggests using compounds to maximize the efefcts of loading on as much muscle as possible per exercise.

Getting definition means getting rid of excess bodyfat.
Cario and diet are more effective for that purpose than isolation exercises.
 
Agreed bla, although I believe a small % can be attributed to isos, in conjunction with diet and cardio, lets just say hypertrophy is caused on a smaller mauscle not otherwise hypertrophied by a compound.

But...darn we theorizing things too much.
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Here's an analogy thta kinda supports what I am saying:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A bodybuilder, on the other hand, wants to target and develop the muscles of his chest, delts, and triceps. If he uses a bench press and he has the type of build that places 90% of the work on his triceps and delts, obviously his pecs won’t be receiving adequate tension.

Therefore, he’ll probably want to add in movements specifically for his pecs. A flye or crossover for example. The same is true for other bodyparts.

Bodybuilders often use additional movements to target various muscle groups and should focus on making bar weight increases on those. Other then that, the principles of getting stronger should be exactly the same.</div>
 
If I were to do these close grip pull-ups (I always thought chins were reverse grip and pull-ups were palms facing), would they replace the regular wide-grip chins I do primarily for back (palms facing away)?
 
I've been lifting for over 30 yrs and doing HST for 4 or 5 yrs. I've have always done direct work on my arms - I've always felt that I needed it. Nobody could talk me into just compounds for a workout - I NEED DIRECT ARM WORK. I'm 54 yrs old and weigh around 215 lbs. I'm guessing my arms are around 17 1/2&quot; but haven't measured them in a few years.

I'm not a science guy that breaks down workouts to the molecular level because I have no interest to look at it that deep and probably don't have the smarts to do it either -
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All that being said - let me tell you my experience.

I've had a bad elbow for a few years and pretty much just put up with it. About 6 months ago, my elbow got so bad that I couldn't do any heavy pressing movements. I was faced with either totally shutting it down for a month or so OR trying to train around it. Of course I chose training around it. I decided that I would stop doing any direct triceps work and see if that helped. So I SD'ed for 9 days then started in with 15's. 15's went well, as did the 10's - then came the real test 5's. I was able to complete my 5's and extend them for 4 more weeks with tolerable elbow discomfort - nothing like I previously had. Well - I've continued to train like this now for 6 months.

Guess what - I really haven't lost any tricep size at all. Yes - I think they may be somewhat less defined but they still look as big as ever. That's with no direct triceps work for 6 months - not hi reps, lo reps etc...

BTW - still do some biceps each workout - haven't convinced myself that I can stop them too - LOL.

Now maybe somebody here can tell you why this happened but it's not me. I just go to the gym, train and go home. Not a lot of thinking going on here.

Firm
 
I'm a relative newbie too and I didn't get the impression that ISO's aren't necessary; just that compounds are better in general because you want as much &quot;bang&quot; for your metabolic &quot;buck&quot;.

IMHO, HST/MaxStim/Cluster HST are just handy names for the insights we are getting from the new research: More sets not necessary, fatigue not good, keeping up with your 80% RM etc.

For my part, I'd choose HST if only for the way it minimizes cortisol and other stress hormones that eat you up from the inside. I think these new systems are the &quot;next generation&quot;.
 
Well I will throw something at you guys to consider ( no science include)

Have you ever realized how many guys in general look damn good as far as physique goes and they don't hardly every workout.

This just reinforces my opinion on it doesn't really take that much training to grow muscles.

Not that is a good example....(but bare with me here) but look at actors (now given some of us want to be much bigger..but most would take there ripped look)

But most actors train shitty and mediocre at best. (They don't lift heavy ....and they don't lift often..but a lot of them still have impressive bodies.

Take a look at Matthew Macconaughey lately...the body looks ripped as hell..and all he does it bodyweight type stuff and runs (both on occasion) unless he is pre-paring for a movie.

Now I know most of you are going to say ...he is small and weak...but the fact of the matter is from a body type standpoint is bodytype is way more popular among our culture.

I mean take myself for example ...I have weighed as much as 222 at 6 feet with decent bodyfat....I was looking pretty swole and huge as far as bodybuilding....but I was unhealthy as shi-t and I looked like as-s to most girls and guys.

They were like dude you have no neck...even my wife said your traps are disgusting...the whole time I was loving it.

Im just saying.....
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HOw about male gymnasts? Rarely, if ever enter a weight room. They do compound movements, but bodyweight only. Bodies look very good -- not jacked, but very good.
 
All athletes, including gymnasts, train with weights to different degrees as a integral part of their discipline training. We call this cross-training, to train across multiple disciplines to enhance the main one.
 
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