John Berardi

[Dianabol]

Dear anoopbal,

Two more questions

>>>> Excellent

1) Under normal circumastances, is excess calories the only reason( or the major reason) why people put on weight or not loose weight?

>>>> Yes. All else being equal, excess calories will make you gain weight.

2)What is the differnce in reducing calories by doing exercising or just by reducing calories through diet?Why both?

>>>> The former rids fat from under the skin and the latter rids from from around your internal organs, or something to that effect if I remember right. Also, it comes to a point where one can only cut that much calories before starving. To be honest, I'd prefer to cut calories via exercising, and when weight loss stagnates, drop some calories via restricting food intake, and continue with the exercise. To first cut calories by restricing feed intake is akin to putting the cart before the horse

Exercise (those in anaerobic nature in particular) also preserves lean mass while undergoing feed restriction. This is a good thing. Just dieting alone will result in weight loss but much of this can be muscle, which is a bad thing. Some of us even experience a slight gain in lean mass while restricting diet but this only happens via HST

Really

Godspeed, and happy HSTing

 

[anoopbal]

Thanks a lot, Dianabol.You are doing a great job.Sorry ,but still have a couple of questions.I am so dumb i guess
1) What dou think will be the RMR of a person with 20% body fat and who hasnt lifted much in his life.Lets keep the age around 23.He not really physically active.
2) If calories in and out is what matters, why cant we have a diet were we lower the intake aof all three macronutrients? why lowering just the carbs in Ketogenic or the UD2 diet?
Thanks in Advance
Anoop

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (anoopbal @ Jan. 26 2004,4:27)]Thanks a lot, Dianabol.You are doing a great job.Sorry ,but still have a couple of questions.I am so dumb i guess
1) What dou think will be the RMR of a person with 20% body fat and who hasnt lifted much in his life.Lets keep the age around 23.He not really physically active.

depends on the bodyweight, but it will be in general around 1800-2000kcal max (without weird extremes in BW)

Quote[/b] ]2) If calories in and out is what matters, why cant we have a diet were we lower the intake aof all three macronutrients? why lowering just the carbs in Ketogenic or the UD2 diet?
Thanks in Advance
Anoop

You can just lower every macro, but some people tend to find lowering carbs itself will reduce hunger more than reducing other macros. The UD2 is more than just lowering carb, depletion has a role in it too. (and supercompensation of carbs)

 

[Dianabol]

Great post Aaron

Persuant to Aaron_F's post,

1. 2) If calories in and out is what matters, why cant we have a diet were we lower the intake aof all three macronutrients? why lowering just the carbs in Ketogenic or the UD2 diet?

>>>> Calorie balance is of essence, but not all calories are equal either. Different macronutrients have different purposes and effects. For instance, I wouldn't recommend cutting protein - you'd lose alot of muscle this way. There is an extreme diet, a protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) that has a fair bit of research on it. Do a search on PSMF on Pubmed. Accordingly, a fast (talk about eating less) is fastest way to lose weight, but taking adequate protein preserves lean mass. This is good - we want to lose excess fat, not muscle. A diet too extreme can be harmful to the internal organs too, and this is all the more reason to ensure protein adequacy. Lean mass can be muscle, and it can consist of internal organs too. I am not recommending a PSMF here... I don't think you need to resort to something so extreme but the PSMF is an example of why and how a macronutrient is selected for a diet protocol.

To be honest, a protein adequate diet in calorie deficit is all it takes to lose fat when combined with a sound exercise program like HST. The PSMF is very extreme and requires medical supervision. Extremes aren't good anyway, since diet really should be a question of lifestyle change, replacing bad eating habits with good ones and all such nitty gritty. A leopard can change its lifestyle spots, but slowly and one at a time.

Godspeed, and happy HSTing

 

[anoopbal]

[/QUOTE]You can just lower every macro, but some people tend to find lowering carbs itself will reduce hunger more than reducing other macros

How does lowering carbs reduce hunger.I have read that carbs are more satiating than fat.And, if there are enough carbs will the body ever dig into the fat stores? Or even if there is enough carbs ur body keeps burning fat.
Anoop

 

[lylemcd]

Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ Jan. 06 2004,6:20)]Well, lets not sell him short too quickly. I think what he is trying to get across is this:
1) It's ok to eat protein and carbs together
2) It's ok to eat protein and fat together
3) it's not ok to eat carbs and fat together
In in general, he's absolutely right, especially if you are at caloric balance or above.
However, things start to change once you drop caloric intake below maintainance.

No , Bryan he's not right and I'm surprised yo'ure buying into his nonsensical argument. His insulin model of fat storage is a solid 10 years out of date and you should know this.

Lyle

 

[lylemcd]

Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ Jan. 07 2004,10:12)]I think we are getting a little off track here.
The only question that needs to be answered is, is there an effect of eating different combinations of macronutrients? Or does the body even it all out in the wash?
So, does the effect of glucose on genetic expression effect the body's propensity to store fat?
Does insulin have any effect on lipogenesis or the genes associated with it?
Does the absence of insulin have any effect on lipogenesys or the genes associated with it?
Does glucose have any effect on lipolysis?
Does insulin have any effect on lipolysis?
What effect does creating a caloric deficit have on the all of this?
What effect does overfeeding have on all of this?
And just to humor me, what effect does physical activity (i.e. exercise) have on all of this?
Now keep in mind that the only way these questions can be answered is with a study or two. Sometimes these studies won't answer the question directly, but they may still provide enough data to predict with great accuracy the answer.

The question I didn't see yo uask in that list Bryan: What about acylation stimulation protein? What does it do? What regulates it?

That's your answer

I have two papers, that I will track down showing that dietary fat (either oral or IV ingestion) affects fat cell metabolism with NO CHANGE IN INSULIN.

Please explain how this can be if all that mattesr is keeping insulin down when fat is in the bloodstream. Then examine the time courses of post-prandial insulin and dietary fat appearance in the bloodstream.

Lyle

 

[lylemcd]

Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ Jan. 07 2004,6:55)]And in support of "it doesn't really matter what you eat" is the following study:
Br J Nutr. 2000 Aug;84(2):233-45.
Comment in: Br J Nutr. 2002 Sep;88(3):331-2.
Effects of isoenergetic overfeeding of either carbohydrate or fat in young men.
Lammert O, Grunnet N, Faber P, Bjornsbo KS, Dich J, Larsen LO, Neese RA, Hellerstein MK, Quistorff B.
Department of Sports Sciences and Clinical Biomechanics, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Southern Denmark, Denmark.
Ten pairs of normal men were overfed by 5 MJ/d for 21 d with either a carbohydrate-rich or a fat-rich diet (C- and F-group). The two subjects in each pair were requested to follow each other throughout the day to ensure similar physical activity and were otherwise allowed to maintain normal daily life. The
increase in body weight, fat free mass and fat mass showed great variation, the mean increases being 1.5 kg, 0.6 kg and 0.9 kg respectively. No significant differences between the C- and F-group were observed. Heat production during sleep did not change during overfeeding. The RQ during sleep was 0.86 and 0.78 in the C- and F-group respectively. The accumulated faecal loss of energy, DM, carbohydrate and protein was significantly higher in the C- compared with the
F-group (30, 44, 69 and 51% higher respectively), whereas the fat loss was the same in the two groups. N balance was not different between the C- and F-group and was positive. Fractional contribution from hepatic de novo lipogenesis, as
measured by mass isotopomer distribution analysis after administration of [1-(13)C]acetate, was 0.20 and 0.03 in the C-group and the F-group respectively. Absolute hepatic de novo lipogenesis in the C-group was on average 211 g per 21
d. Whole-body de novo lipogenesis, as obtained by the difference between fat mass increase and dietary fat available for storage, was positive in six of the
ten subjects in the C-group (mean 332 (SEM 191)g per 21 d). The change in plasma leptin concentration was positively correlated with the change in fat mass.
Thus, fat storage during overfeeding of isoenergetic amounts of diets rich in carbohydrate or in fat was not significantly different, and carbohydrates seemed to be converted to fat by both hepatic and extrahepatic lipogenesis.
This is why Lyle is such a cynic.
However due to studies like the following I prefer to restric my fat intake when overfeeding.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Jul;62(1):19-29.
Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage.
Horton TJ, Drougas H, Brachey A, Reed GW, Peters JC, Hill JO.
Center for Human Nutrition, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver 80262, USA.
Both the amount and composition of food eaten influence body-weight regulation. The purpose of this study was to determine whether and by what mechanism excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate. We overfed isoenergetic amounts (50% above energy requirements) of fat and carbohydrate (for 14 d each) to nine lean and seven obese men. A whole-room calorimeter was used to measure energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation on days 0, 1, 7, and 14 of each overfeeding period. From energy and nutrient balances (intake-expenditure) we estimated the amount and composition of energy stored. Carbohydrate overfeeding produced progressive increases in carbohydrate oxidation and total energy expenditure resulting in 75-85% of excess energy being stored. Alternatively, fat overfeeding had minimal effects on fat oxidation and total energy expenditure, leading to storage of 90-95% of excess energy. Excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate, and the difference was greatest early in the overfeeding period.
It's just easier for the body to get rid of a bit more excess carbs than it can fat...so, if I need to add calories, I add either protein or carbs and leave my fat intake pretty much the same all the time.
As you can see, one could argue that it matters or it doesn't. As we tend to respond differently to excess carbs/fat it is a good idea to try both aproaches and see what happens.

Bryan,

Now you are talking about reducing fat intake in toto

Not splitting it

Different issues.

Berardi is claiming that by splitting your macros you can

a. eat the same amount of fat
b. eat more calories
c. yet not get fat

Do you agree with this? Do you think that splitting your meals into P+F and P+C will let you eat more than you otherwise could without getting fat?

Of course, the simple answer is that, in the last year or so, Berardi has totally backpeddled. He now allows 'some carbs' (mainly low GI) with P+F meals. So all of this is really irreelvant wanking. I do wonder, though, what carbs he thought people were eating with their fat.

Lyle

 

[lylemcd]

Am J Physiol. 1999 Feb;276(2 Pt 1):E241-8. Related Articles, Links

Effects of an oral and intravenous fat load on adipose tissue and forearm lipid metabolism.

Evans K, Clark ML, Frayn KN.

Nuffield Department of Clinical Biochemistry, John Radcliffe Hospital, Headington, Oxford OX3 9DU, UK.

We have studied the fate of lipoprotein lipase (LPL)-derived fatty acids by measuring arteriovenous differences across subcutaneous adipose tissue and skeletal muscle in vivo. Six subjects were fasted overnight and were then given 40 g of triacylglycerol either orally or as an intravenous infusion over 4 h. Intracellular lipolysis (hormone-sensitive lipase action; HSL) was suppressed after both oral and intravenous fat loads (P < 0.001). Insulin, a major regulator of HSL activity, showed little change after either oral or intravenous fat load, suggesting that suppression of HSL action occurred independently of insulin. The rate of action of LPL (measured as triacylglycerol extraction) increased with both oral and intravenous fat loads in adipose tissue (P = 0.002) and skeletal muscle (P = 0.001). There was increased escape of LPL-derived fatty acids into the circulation from adipose tissue, shown by lack of reesterification of fatty acids. There was no release into the circulation of LPL-derived fatty acids from skeletal muscle. These results suggest that insulin is not essential for HSL suppression or increased triacylglycerol clearance but is important in reesterification of fatty acids in adipose tissue but not uptake by skeletal muscle, thus affecting fatty acid partitioning between adipose tissue and the circulation, postprandial nonesterified fatty acid concentrations, and hepatic very low density lipoprotein secretion.

 

[lylemcd]

I believe this is the other one, although bieng IV only it has limited applicability, it doesn't mention insulin per se in the abstract.

BTW, Bryan, I'm not a cycnic: I'm a realist who gets sick of people promising people magic based on false phyiology and hope.

Realism is only cynical to those who have their heads in the sky, who hope that the magic is still real when they should know better.

Lyle

***
nt J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1998 Aug;22(8):806-12. Related Articles, Links

Peripheral fat metabolism during infusion of an exogenous triacylglycerol emulsion.

Samra JS, Giles SL, Summers LK, Evans RD, Arner P, Humphreys SM, Clark ML, Frayn KN.

Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, Oxford, UK.

OBJECTIVE: To test the hypothesis that intravenous infusion of lipid would bring about changes in adipose tissue metabolism, which would tend to spare net fat mobilization, and to attempt to identify the mediators of such responses. DESIGN: The triacylglycerol (TG) emulsion, Intralipid, was infused and metabolic changes in subcutaneous adipose tissue and forearm muscle were assessed by measurements of arterio-venous differences. SUBJECTS: Six normal male subjects aged 21-37 y, with body mass index (BMI) 23.0-25.9 kg/m2. RESULTS: Plasma TG and non-esterified fatty acid (NEFA) concentrations rose during infusion as expected. The rise in systemic plasma NEFA concentration occurred despite decreased NEFA release from adipose tissue. Intralipid infusion resulted in a suppression of intracellular lipolysis in adipose tissue, by mechanisms which are not clear. Plasma leptin concentrations, measured in a search for the regulator of lipolysis, showed consistent leptin release from adipose tissue which did not change significantly with time. CONCLUSION: The suppression of intracellular lipolysis in adipose tissue during Intralipid infusion is a new observation and may reflect a novel mechanism for regulation of fat storage.

 

[lylemcd]

Quote[/b] (anoopbal @ Feb. 01 2004,5:07)]

You can just lower every macro, but some people tend to find lowering carbs itself will reduce hunger more than reducing other macros

How does lowering carbs reduce hunger.I have read that carbs are more satiating than fat.And, if there are enough carbs will the body ever dig into the fat stores? Or even if there is enough carbs ur body keeps burning fat.
Anoop

Anoop,

Look up the studies by Layman on replacing carbs with protein and its effects on blood glucose

The satiation effect of carbs is based on basically patently stupid studies (preload).

If you take them at face value, protein is by far and away the most satiating nutrient. Add to that the impact of fat on the intermeal interval (while fat has little to no short term effect on hunger, it impacts on hunger between meals by affecting gastric emptying rate).

Lyle

 

[Fausto]

Lyle

I am not a nutritionist at all but thought that the essential Beardi e-book had some sensible non-sensical information, so basing myself on the simple Berardi equations for meals:

P + F (minimal carbs) and  P + C (minimal fat) = Increased mass + little added fat (adipose tissue)

vs.

C alone or C + F = Increased mass + lots of fat (adipose tissue)


Is this non-sensical? What then would be the way to bulk without compromising leanness? Your view?

Remember I don't fling poo! eh, eh, eh, eh.....

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (Fausto @ Feb. 17 2006,12:03)]P + F (minimal carbs) and  P + C (minimal fat) = Increased mass + little added fat (adipose tissue)
vs.
C alone or C + F = Increased mass + lots of fat (adipose tissue)
Is this non-sensical?

comparing meals including protein to a completely deficient meals is completely nonsensical.