Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by HST_Rihad, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Has anyone tried Martin's LeanGains approach while lean bulking? Basically the key point is that you don't eat in the morning, but do it at around 12-2 p.m. depending on when you go to bed at night, then take your last meal 8 hours after that. Of course nutrient partitioning is important, too. During morning hours body is more prone to use fat stores for energy than later in the day. I'm thinking of giving it a go to try and bulk at 15% bf (20-25% currently...)

  2. gbglifter

    gbglifter Member

    I use leangains. Its been a mini life-transformation for me. Ive been using it for about 10 weeks now and Ive gone from about maybe 14-15%bf to between 10 and 11. I have gained strength and one could probably argue I havent lost any lean mass.

    I do a 16 hour fast, breaking it at 1pm. On my training days Im working out at 4pm. I eat when I come home and then again at 9pm. Almost evry day is like that.

    If youre going from 20-25% to 15% then youre not bulking....youre cutting. Which is exactly what Im doing. Its the first cut that seems sustainable for me. I will continue this indefinitely.
  3. CDB

    CDB New Member

    I tried it in the past and IF seems like a viable approach for me, and many others. As with anything, just don't get lost in the weeds.
  4. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Hi, gbglifter, did you contact Martin to get him to help you accommodate the diet for your case, or are you simply using the info he has put out for free on his site? For reasons of comfort (less crowded gym) I'd like to have my workouts carried out much earlier than 3-4 pm...at around 11 am. I know I shouldn't eat this early, but I could take 10 g of BCAA which doesn't count as starting the fed state. How would that work with a subsequent intensive 5RM workout?
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Random thoughts for you Rihad:

    -10g of BCAA is still 10g protein.

    -LeanGains is a great cutting program, but you still need to put yourself into a healthy surplus to gain.

    -Try reorientating your entire clock for eating and working out if possible. The reason that over night is a fast is that it's a stress free period for doing it; don't have to mentally process the hunger.

    Pretty much most IF protocols will work, so don't feel like getting stuck onto this one in particular is a must-do (if it starts tripping you up).
  6. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    It's not equivalent, this is what he suggests under Early morning fasted training http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

    I'm not using it for cutting down to sub-10% or anything, by appropriately managing caloric intake LeanGains can be subdivided into 3 sub-version, each intended for muscle gain, cutting, and recomp. I'm hoping to continue bulking at a stable ~15% with its help.

    Eating during 10am-6pm would suit my schedule much better, but it's impractical to shove in so much food at 6pm so as to not feel hunger later on up until next refeed (I go to bed after 11pm). Here I don't get the impression that fasting up until 12-2 pm is critical, it can be done any time:

    "The recommendation for fasting through the earlier part of the day, as opposed to the latter part of the day, is for behavioral and social reasons. Most people simply find it easier to fast after awakening and prefer going to bed satiated. Afternoons and evenings are times to unwind and eat. For adherence reasons during dieting, I've also found that placing the feeding phase later in the day is ideal for most people."

    LeanGains is specifically targeted at muscle building guys.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  7. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Anything and everything you want can be marketed as 'targeted to muscle building guys', just don't fall into the trap of thinking its infallible. Any IF will work if you do it properly. The advantage of LeanGains (at least IMO) is that its spelled out exactly as you want it, much like HST is. That doesn't stop ppl asking questions that they already have the answers to, but it's still helpful for those that are willing to read first ;). Calories is still what you need for gaining muscle. No diet or fasting protocol, food division etc can get around that.

    Quick tangent - what were your gains from your recent cycle? Maybe update your log?

    Regardless of what the author states, BCAA's qualify as protein. What do you think protein or peptides are composed of ... ? It's stated to not consider them as such for the purposes of the diet protocol, because if you do, sooner or later some moron starts switching it for a different protein or food, which in turn ultimately leads to them stuffing up the whole protocol and complaining about it.

    That's getting at the same thing I said to you; the exact times you fast, workout and eat are selected for psychological, behavioural, mental and familial reasons. So long as the spacing is kept the same, you can do them at whatever time you prefer; for example a shift worker who works nights and sleeps 9am-4pm etc
  8. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I've done IF before and changed around the fasting/eating times to fit my lifting and living schedule. It works great however there is no way in hell that I could bulk on IF. Not sure if you can fit in enough calories during the eating window to gain, Rihad, but I could not.
  9. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Of course, I won't be cutting calories at this time (like I counted them before :D), but the period of eating will be condensed into that 8 hour window, calories would be the same, i.e. eating away. Still I'm expecting this diet to better handle fat utilization due to peculiarities of the circadian rhythm (better fat utilization during morning hours).

    Thanks, will do that, I've just extended my 5's by two more workouts: one was yesterday (Monday), the last will be this Thursday, at which time I'll update my log.

    Sure, but the author wrote somewhere that up to about 50 cals don't qualify as eating (coffee, tea, diet coke etc) if not abused.
    The only reason for BCAA seems to be lower cals than protein, faster absorption and no need to fully digest & break it down into AAs, which would kick in the digestive machinery + insulin at greater degrees. Ok, three reasons :)

    Anyway, I'm thinking of sticking to the 2pm-10pm eating window, which would require me to move w/o further in time towards 4pm, thus I won't be using BCAAs at this time. My SD is approaching, I'll have 10 days to test drive this diet.

    Now after some more reading I'm more inclined to believe that timing does make sense, as the author believes. Post 12 pm is ideal to break the fasting period. The time of the last meal should be considered, so if you go to bed post 11 pm then your last meal should be at around 10 pm, so first meal should be at 2 pm.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  10. gbglifter

    gbglifter Member

    No, I didnt contact him. I just used the leangains guide to fashion a routine. I worked out my BMR/daily needs and went with -30%/+30%. There really shouldn´t be a problem training at 11am in a fasted state. BCAA´s are obviously recommended and Id probably take some just before I trained then. You can eat when you like but you´ll probably fall into the same pitfall as other diets where you go hungry in the evening. Waiting until 2pm is probably a good idea.

    I only eat meat and veg before I train and Ive had some of my best workouts this way. Ive always felt I need to carbload before being able to perform at the gym but thats just psychosomatic.
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Definitely easier the less calories you need/less further along you are.
  12. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    I wonder how many calories Martin eats daily. Considering he eats 3 big meals, I'd bet his total isn't way bigger than 3000. From an economical standpoint, leangains makes sense.

    (Totentanz, you may want to read this)
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  13. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    YEAH, except Martin is probably like 80 Kg soaking wet, and he doesn't want to get bigger, he just wants to stay ripped year round.....BUT, Totentanz is probably over 110 KG, and he wants to get even bigger. Major difference in size and goals.
  14. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    What Sci said ... Totentanz is not gaining on the same intake that Martin is. Even cut down, he will have a substantial weight advantage (disadvantage in terms of gaining further). Bulking on 3 meals, IF'ing & sticking to the macro restrictions is incredibly difficult.
  15. mikeynov

    mikeynov Super Moderator Staff Member

    I think he's closer to 90 kg, but I agree, the biggest disadvantage to IF is trying to cram in a ****load of calories, if that's your goal. I think the highest I've gone is ~3500 or so, and I tend to go 15/9, not 16/8, and even that gets pretty hard to stomach with healthy food choices.
  16. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    Yeah for me it's protein intake that is the problem. If I am bulking, I need to get like 200 grams of protein or more. And that just isn't going to happen in 2 or 3 meals in 24 hours.
  17. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Well, there are at least 4 different diet regimens one can adhere to: (1) fat loss, (2) lean gains, (3) bodyrecomp, (4) lifestyle (maintenance) (as outlined here). Martin has obviously switched to (4) lifestyle. I don't see why one can't pick (2) lean gains. If he said he can eat as much as 2000 cals per meal (eating a total of 3 meals a day) or as much as 100 gr protein per meal, so can the rest of us. It's just important to get rid of any kinds of snacks or what not in between.

    Body weight isn't very indicative, one may simply be taller/wider, have more dense skeleton, etc.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  18. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Body recomposition as a protocol is near impossible w/chemical assistance or specific situations (significantly obese using resistance training and significant fat stores as energy source).

    And again, you're going to gain fat with muscle gain. It's unavoidable.

    Body weight is obviously relevant. The greater your current LBM (and less importantly, your non-LBM), the more calories you need to consume in order to put on further muscle. For an IF protocol, you have to be realistic and accept that it's harder to cram the same # of calories (increasing, if attempting to bulk). The smaller you are, the easier it is to bulk, all others being equal.
  19. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Yes, but it will hopefully be gradually minimized to 15% or so only due to the 8/16 stuff (14:00-22:00), and I don't want to go below that. Better than my current 20-25% :-|

    Are you absolutely sure that at 5-6% Totentanz would have bigger muscles after considering bone width etc?
    (Totentanz, no offense, simply wondering).

    Is 5000 or so not enough for bigger guys? 2000+1500+1500.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  20. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    1. You can't guess what your bf% will be. And you certainly won't gain muscle whilst losing fat simultaneously.

    2. Don't over-exaggerate skeletal differences. In addition, Totentanz is bigger in part because of his height .. oh yeh, he's frikkin' massive. And regardless, it still boils down to more muscle mass requiring more calories, and eating more calories is difficult after a while.

    3. 5000 per day is obviously going to be enough. Eating 5k per day, whilst sticking to LeanGains protocol? Going to be painful.

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