My Big, Stinky Log

Tim, few things I would suggest. Do your OH pressing standing up, especially since you're interesting in olympic lifting. I would focus on doing mainly compound movements and drop the isolation stuff; olympic squats and deadlifts will take care of your legs. If you do an SD, then do a set of heavy clean pulls and I guarantee your calves will be sore the next day.

It's great to start by warming up with an olympic lift, one of the football coaches told me to do 5x5 of snatch balances as a warm up with just the bar. I start every w/o that way and it really warms you up and helps with form. I would be cautious though about doing 10 reps with moderate weight though, form breaks down pretty quick with the olympic lifts after 5 reps.
 
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(colby2152 @ Aug. 03 2007,20:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's more HST than SST.  Did you look into 5 x 5?</div>
I'm a certified idiot.

It's the high volume piece that's HST, ain't it?  Yup - if that's what you mean colby, I absolutely agree.

This is supposed to be SST.  Therefore, I'm gonna drop the 3 weeks of 10 x 4 sets.  I'll start week 1 with 80% of my 5RM and do 8 weeks of 5x5 progressing 5% each week.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Tim, few things I would suggest.  Do your OH pressing standing up, especially since you're interesting in olympic lifting.  I would focus on doing mainly compound movements and drop the isolation stuff; olympic squats and deadlifts will take care of your legs.  If you do an SD, then do a set of heavy clean pulls and I guarantee your calves will be sore the next day.

It's great to start by warming up with an olympic lift, one of the football coaches told me to do 5x5 of snatch balances as a warm up with just the bar.  I start every w/o that way and it really warms you up and helps with form.  I would be cautious though about doing 10 reps with moderate weight though, form breaks down pretty quick with the olympic lifts after 5 reps.
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Liege - I agree on the OH presses.   However, I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you say, &quot;If you do an SD, then do a set of heavy clean pulls and I guarantee your calves will be sore the next day.&quot;  Did you mean to say SD in there - because I'm not sure how deconditioning fitis into your point about legs.  
rock.gif


I knew the ISO stuff wouldn't be terribly popular, but with a 4 day split I thought I'd try it.  However, if I can get rid of the calf raises in favor of something else, I'm all for it!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm a certified idiot.

It's the high volume piece that's HST, ain't it? Yup - if that's what you mean colby, I absolutely agree.

This is supposed to be SST. Therefore, I'm gonna drop the 3 weeks of 10 x 4 sets. I'll start week 1 with 80% of my 5RM and do 8 weeks of 5x5 progressing 5% each week.</div>

Well, what makes it HST is:

starting at sub-maximal weight albeit 80-90%
having different mesocycles
linear progression
high frequency full body

Tone down the frequency and/or take out the linear progression every day hence 5x5.
 
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(colby2152 @ Aug. 04 2007,12:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, what makes it HST is:

starting at sub-maximal weight albeit 80-90%
having different mesocycles
linear progression
high frequency full body

Tone down the frequency and/or take out the linear progression every day hence 5x5.</div>
colby -

Almost every 5x5 routine I saw started sub-maximally and progressed in a linear way. The part of your assessment that I disagree with you on is frequency - I'm only specifically training each muscle group once per week with only a couple overlaps for my arms. My abs do get hit twice per week, but I'm not applying anything HST/SST to that aspect. The progression, too, happens weekly - not daily.

The SST part is one 8 week mesocycle - one rep range, one volume target. That's what I was saying with my last post. It'll be 8 weeks of 5x5.

If this isn't conventional SST - that's ok. Bottom line, I'm training for strength - not size - and it'll either work or not work. I'm sure I'll make adjustments as the cycle goes along as I did with my HST cycle.

Thanks for your comments - you're making me think about this!
 
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(_tim @ Aug. 04 2007,07:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Liege - I agree on the OH presses. However, I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you say, &quot;If you do an SD, then do a set of heavy clean pulls and I guarantee your calves will be sore the next day.&quot; Did you mean to say SD in there - because I'm not sure how deconditioning fitis into your point about legs.
rock.gif


I knew the ISO stuff wouldn't be terribly popular, but with a 4 day split I thought I'd try it. However, if I can get rid of the calf raises in favor of something else, I'm all for it!</div>
I was making the point about not having to do direct calf work and I was not clear enough. If you're doing full ROM squats and deadlifts I don't see any reason to do direct calf work. Many people also doubt the olympic lifts will stimulate growth in the calves; so if someone was to SD, then in the first workout back, if you did a set or two of heavy clean pulls, you'd know from the soreness the next day your calves were worked.
 
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(liegelord @ Aug. 05 2007,19:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was making the point about not having to do direct calf work and I was not clear enough.  If you're doing full ROM squats and deadlifts I don't see any reason to do direct calf work.  Many people also doubt the olympic lifts will stimulate growth in the calves; so if someone was to SD, then in the first workout back, if you did a set or two of heavy clean pulls, you'd know from the soreness the next day your calves were worked.</div>
PERFECT! Thanks for the clarification, liege! I'll definitely make that change! I'm really looking forward to learning the Olympic lifts; I put a message in to the personal training company at our gym to see if anyone was familiar with the lifts, but haven't heard back. I may well be learning this stuff via you and many round trips to YouTube/exrx!

Thanks so much for the feedback!
 
Day 1 (SST) 80% 5RM

Let me say this as a preface: I will take absolutely no offense to those who laugh at me.
tounge.gif


Olympic WU:
Hang Cleans: 95 x 5 x 3

OK. This was my first ever attempt at these. In my 1st set, I almost fell over backwards. In my second set, I busted myself in the chin TWICE. In my third set, things started to settle in. On a more serious note, I think I'm leaning back way too much when I finish the lift. Am I correct in that when the lift is complete, I should be relatively straight up and down, trunk wise? In any case, it's a start.

Preface #2 - some of the weights I used were approximated, so next Monday will either validate my weight choices or show that I need to further reduce the loads for a more proper progression. I'm going to make a couple adjustments based on what I did today for sure - but next week will validate the loads.

The workout went like this:

Pendlay Rows
[Pullups,Barbell Skulz]
[CNGP,Smithy Close Bench]

(the [] are supersets)

Details:

Pendlay Rows:
WU: 95x8; 135 x 7
160 x 5 x 5
This is one of those exercises that I've never done before, so this weight choice was approximated. We'll see if I can handle the progression next week.

Pullups:
WU: BW x 8
35 x 5 x 1; 25 x 5 x 1; 20 x 5 x 3
Another approximation. Being honest, I thought my pullups would be close to my chins weight-wise. Not at all the case. (Anybody know what the weight ratio should be between pronated and supinated grips?) The first two sets really ruined my form for the last 3 - but I got through them.

Barbell Skulz:
There may well be a more proper name for these, but in this log, they will forever be Barbell Skulz.
mad.gif

WU: 45 x 10
95 x 5 x 5
Maybe a tad light. Approximated, yes, but I have a history with these so I had an idea where I should be. I may increase the 5RM just a little bit.

CNGP (close neutral-grip pulls):
50 x 5 x 1; 35 x 5 x 2
These were ruined by my pullup sets, and time had pretty much run out. I'm not at all sure about the weight loads.

Smithy Close-Grip Bench:
155 x 5 x 3
DAMN. I wish I hadn't run out of time. These felt great! The load may have been a bit light - we'll re-evaluate next week.

OK. In summary, a GREAT first workout. My triceps are gonna love this workout - I can feel them for the first time in a long time right now. I think this cycle will go long ways in terms of really developing each muscle group pretty well. This back/tri workout will (once I have all the loads finalized) hit every major part of my back, and all three parts of the tri's. Good stuff. Tomorrow in delts and abs.
 
Looks like you had some fun this morning!  I'm getting my workout in tonight, I have an exam this afternoon and wanted to sleep in from cramming last night.  

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">On a more serious note, I think I'm leaning back way too much when I finish the lift.  Am I correct in that when the lift is complete, I should be relatively straight up and down, trunk wise?</div>
The form will come quickly.  It's almost like riding a bike:  completely awkward at first, then you get the form down, then you learn to explode through the lift.  I would think that you should be relatively up and down, as when the load gets heavy you definitely don't want the weight bending you back, I've seen a kid fall back and snap his forearm... luckily not his back.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There may well be a more proper name for these, but in this log, they will forever be Barbell Skulz.    </div>
I call them those too.  I think others call it a french press, at least that's what the youtube video of french's I saw looked like.  I like the other name better, sounds more hardcore.  

Looking like a good time so far.  Hopefully this next week or so will help you to make a few tweaks here and there to get things going.
 
Thanks Gator. I always thought that the French Press was when you are seated, with your arms above your head, pressing the weight from there, elbows forward or slightly out.

Yeah - this week will likely be a setup week. Lots of tweaks here and there - weight-wise. I like the program I came up with, so the exercises aren't terribly likely to change until I'm over my 5RM - at that point, I may reduce the total number of exercises I do.

Thanks as always for your comments - this time especially for the Hang Clean comments. I'll take you at your word that this will get easier....

Good luck with your final!
 
tim, do not lean back doing oly lifts, you should stay upright. When you catch the weight, you should be flat-footed, but your weight is on your heels. I've never hit my chin on a clean, I can only guess at why that happened.

I have hit my chin doing a jerk though, that's a mistake you only need to make once.
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Thanks liege! Things went much better today........

(SST) Day 2 - B - Delts/Abs 80%

Olympic WU: Hang Cleans: 95 x 5 x 3
Hell yeah! I got it. These felt great (albeit light) and I think my form was 10,000% better. The only thing I'm concerned about at this point from a form perspective is my elbow position at the finish. No matter how hard I try to get them at parallel, it just doesn't happen. I'm above a 45 degree angle, but not by much - my arms honestly don't bend like that.

The rest of the workout went like this:

[OH Press, Rev Pec Deck]
[Side Dumbell Laterals, Shrugs]
[Abs]

Specifics:

OH Press:
95 x 5 x 5

Being honest, I was gonna warm-up with the 95. Turns out that was a good 80% number, so I went with it. My anterior delts are WEAK.


Rev Pec Deck:
120 x 5 x 5

Felt good.


Dumbell Side Laterals:
25 x 5 x 5

Form, form, form. For the way I do these, 25 pounds is heavy. Seriously.

Shrugs:
225 x 5 x 5

Forgot my straps and needed 'em. Grip was an issue on the last three sets - I had to cluster the reps 4-1 because I was dropping the bar.


Abs: [Roman Chairs: 25 x 8 + Straight-leg lifts: BW x 12] x 2
(two supersets.)

One word: OUCH. I'm gonna hurt tomorrow.

All in all, a very humbling but good workout. If the only thing that comes from this cycle is stronger deltoids, I'd be fine with that.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No matter how hard I try to get them at parallel, it just doesn't happen.  I'm above a 45 degree angle, but not by much - my arms honestly don't bend like that.</div>
I know what you mean.  I didn't do any type of Oly lifts for like a year after H.S., then when I tried to go back and do power cleans I couldn't get mine parallel anymore.  You will want to try and get them to go parallel eventually though because then you can almost &quot;rest&quot; the bar on your delts on the front squat portion of a power clean... when you get to those.  Otherwise, it tends to pull you on your toes and take away some power.

Liege would know more than me, but that's how I always felt from experience. Good liftin' though, I might do an SST cycle in the near future.
 
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(liegelord @ Aug. 07 2007,00:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">tim, do not lean back doing oly lifts, you should stay upright. When you catch the weight, you should be flat-footed, but your weight is on your heels. I've never hit my chin on a clean, I can only guess at why that happened.

I have hit my chin doing a jerk though, that's a mistake you only need to make once.
biggrin.gif
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liege -

I actually hit my chin trying to get my elbows up. I didn't have that issue today - I just focused on the overall lift and things went well.

I'm probably going to stay with Hang Cleans for the week. What would you say would be the best lift to try next? Power Cleans as you'd mentioned before?

Thanks for your help!
 
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(UFGatorDude30 @ Aug. 07 2007,11:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I know what you mean. I didn't do any type of Oly lifts for like a year after H.S., then when I tried to go back and do power cleans I couldn't get mine parallel anymore. You will want to try and get them to go parallel eventually though because then you can almost &quot;rest&quot; the bar on your delts on the front squat portion of a power clean... when you get to those. Otherwise, it tends to pull you on your toes and take away some power.

Liege would know more than me, but that's how I always felt from experience. Good liftin' though, I might do an SST cycle in the near future.</div>
Thanks Gator - good to know this elbow thing isn't just me - and that it could get better.

On the SST thing - do you consider what you're doing now to be HST, or something of an HST/SST hybrid? When I was coming up with what I'm doing, I studied your and Sci's current methodologies and concluded that it was a hybrid. Is that how you look at it?

In any case, I'll let you know how this goes (beyond the log posts) if you want a bit of a different perspective than I present here so you can make the decision for your next go-round.
 
I'd agree, that my current one is a hybrid. I could never handle this kind of volume if I wanted to truly train specifically for strength. Also, the deviation in reps would be much less if I were SST only... I'd probably start with 8's, and move down to triples. And, as you have also done, I would probably drop my frequency. But we will see when the time comes, for now I will enjoy reading yours.
 
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(_tim @ Aug. 07 2007,11:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm probably going to stay with Hang Cleans for the week. What would you say would be the best lift to try next? Power Cleans as you'd mentioned before?

Thanks for your help!</div>
You're welcome and good to hear your form has improved. I would stay with hang cleans though. Keep working on the second pull; if you want to work another lift, then do clean pulls from a hang. My whole focus is really on the second pull and my lifts have really started going up.

As far as your elbows, keep practicing and you'll get more flexible, make sure you're not gripping the bar when you catch it, the bar should be on the ends of your fingers.

The strength coaches I know each tell me it takes up to two years to get the form good without a coach and about 90 days with a coach 5 days a week. Without a video, it's impossible to judge your form, there are so many things you could be doing wrong. My big thing is starting the pull a little too soon, I was starting below my knees before the coaches corrected me.

I had no idea though, you're moving way too fast to be able to focus on each part and what you could be doing wrong. From what I've been told, you know your form is pretty good when you can clean 80% of your back squat. I should be cleaning about 310, but I'm only cleaning about 250.
 
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(liegelord @ Aug. 08 2007,00:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You're welcome and good to hear your form has improved. I would stay with hang cleans though. Keep working on the second pull; if you want to work another lift, then do clean pulls from a hang. My whole focus is really on the second pull and my lifts have really started going up.

As far as your elbows, keep practicing and you'll get more flexible, make sure you're not gripping the bar when you catch it, the bar should be on the ends of your fingers.

The strength coaches I know each tell me it takes up to two years to get the form good without a coach and about 90 days with a coach 5 days a week. Without a video, it's impossible to judge your form, there are so many things you could be doing wrong. My big thing is starting the pull a little too soon, I was starting below my knees before the coaches corrected me.

I had no idea though, you're moving way too fast to be able to focus on each part and what you could be doing wrong. From what I've been told, you know your form is pretty good when you can clean 80% of your back squat. I should be cleaning about 310, but I'm only cleaning about 250.</div>
HOLY CRAP! 80% of my back squat?

I'll stay with Hang Cleans. I'm trying to find a coach here to help with form to absolutely no avail. I'll continue to work the lift - and next week I'll start adding a bit more weight. I'll probably save trying for heavy weights for my Olympic cycle, however. At some point in this cycle I'm gonna have to start trying to learn a few more lifts one way or another just so I can really use my Olympic cycle to its fullest potential.

I hear you on the video thing - if I can get one recorded, I'll get it on the web and give you the link.

In the meantime, though, I'll continue to work the Hang Clean.
 
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(UFGatorDude30 @ Aug. 07 2007,16:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'd agree, that my current one is a hybrid. I could never handle this kind of volume if I wanted to truly train specifically for strength. Also, the deviation in reps would be much less if I were SST only... I'd probably start with 8's, and move down to triples. And, as you have also done, I would probably drop my frequency. But we will see when the time comes, for now I will enjoy reading yours.</div>
Thanks Gator - that's what I thought.
 
(SST) C1 - Legs, and usually Abs, but not today. 80% 5RM

To start, I had something of a revelation about what the heck I'm doing wrong on my Hang Cleans. I wasn't squatting AT ALL when catching the weight. No friggin' wonder I was bending backwards. Does that mean I got it down today? Aw hell no!

Olympic WU: Hang Cleans: 115 x 5 x 3
SLOPPY. I know this is gonna take time, but man these sets were something resembling clumsy chaos if such a thing exists. After my epiphany, I actively tried to get my timing and form down when catching the bar. No good, no good. Elbows were DOWN. I didn't cleanly catch the bar even once. On finish, even when I told myself not to, I was gripping the bar instead of letting it rest on my fingertips as liege instructed earlier in the log. I'm still looking for a coach, and may have a lead.

The rest of the workout was short, but pretty damn fun if I'm being perfectly honest.

Deads: WU: 135 x 8; 225 x 7
240 x 5 x 5 - my introduction to conventional deadlifts. Light for 5's (this was maybe more like a 65%-70% load), but a good start. I'll adjust my 5RM accordingly - this used an approximated weight based off of my back squat number. Gotta go higha!

Leg Extensions:
270 x 5 x 5 - ok. I was gonna do single legs for this part of the workout. Much to my surprise, I've outgrown the only machine that I could have done them on. So, I'm going to do double legs on the Hammer Strength leg extension machine. The weight reflected is just the plates - I have no idea how much that lever weighs - maybe 25-30 pounds or something like that. Whatever - 270 felt goooooooooooooooood - but definitely not too heavy. This too may have been just a tad light. We'll see.

That was it. I was going to do leg curls but ran out of time. No matter - my hammys took a good beatin' in my deads despite them being kinda light. Missing too were my Ab supersets, but I'm honestly still sore from Tuesday, so I'm fine with missing them.

Tomorrow finishes the week with a chest/bicep bonanza.
 
I wish 240 was light for me
wink.gif
. Glad you had your revelation, you will probably have many more until one day it will just *click*. Just wait till you get into power cleans, I think you'll love those.
 
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