New Buliking Program

[dkm1987]

<div>
(Peak_Power @ Sep. 06 2006,21:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There's two different discussions going on in this thread, one about activation of MUs and another about diet. I'm just responding to the MU one.

Dan I don't want to argue with a moderator of this board, but I believe the abdominals have two nerve inputs, upper and lower, the upper being for spinal flexion and the other being posterior pelvic tilt.</div>
Actually, there's 3

MU, Fiber, BMR

Shot, argue all you want, won't hurt my feelings.

Ok, let's look at this then. 1. You are not speaking about the same thing I was, I said most human fibers are single innervated, 1 end plate per fiber. The known human muscles that aren't are the Lats, sartorius, gracilis and a newer recent report may include another but we don't need to look at it yet. Secondly in most human muscle the fibers run tendon to tendon and each fascicle is crossed by one band of endplates.

What you are talking about is some working showing that SEMG tests show that with incorrect pelvic tilit there is higher SEMG activity in the MU that correspond to upper RA MU recruitment versus lower. This a look at MU activity not what the muscle fibers themselves are doing.

So whether the endplates are more proximal or distal makes no difference as far as the entire fiber contracting, except of course where latency is concerned.

Lastly, I was talking about the single RA muscle not the entire abdomen musculature, which I point out that differing movements can change which muscles are recruited and which will play a more significant role in force.

1: Clark KM, Holt LE, Sinyard J.
Electromyographic comparison of the upper and lower rectus abdominis during
abdominal exercises.
J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Aug;17(3):475-83.
PMID: 12930172 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2: Escamilla RF, Babb E, DeWitt R, Jew P, Kelleher P, Burnham T, Busch J,
D'Anna K, Mowbray R, Imamura RT.
Electromyographic analysis of traditional and nontraditional abdominal
exercises: implications for rehabilitation and training.
Phys Ther. 2006 May;86(5):656-71.
PMID: 16649890 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3: Lehman GJ, McGill SM.
Quantification of the differences in electromyographic activity magnitude
between the upper and lower portions of the rectus abdominis muscle during
selected trunk exercises.
Phys Ther. 2001 May;81(5):1096-101.
PMID: 11319934 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Karst GM, Willett GM.
Effects of specific exercise instructions on abdominal muscle activity during
trunk curl exercises.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2004 Jan;34(1):4-12.
PMID: 14964586 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5: Mori A.
Electromyographic activity of selected trunk muscles during stabilization
exercises using a gym ball.
Electromyogr Clin Neurophysiol. 2004 Jan-Feb;44(1):57-64.
PMID: 15008027 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6: Hildenbrand K, Noble L.
Abdominal Muscle Activity While Performing Trunk-Flexion Exercises Using the Ab
Roller, ABslide, FitBall, and Conventionally Performed Trunk Curls.
J Athl Train. 2004 Mar;39(1):37-43.
PMID: 15085210 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

7: Willett GM, Hyde JE, Uhrlaub MB, Wendel CL, Karst GM.
Relative activity of abdominal muscles during commonly prescribed strengthening
exercises.
J Strength Cond Res. 2001 Nov;15(4):480-5.
PMID: 11726260 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8: Shields RK, Heiss DG.
An electromyographic comparison of abdominal muscle synergies during curl and
double straight leg lowering exercises with control of the pelvic position.
Spine. 1997 Aug 15;22(16):1873-9.
PMID: 9280023 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

9: Sarti MA, Monfort M, Fuster MA, Villaplana LA.
Muscle activity in upper and lower rectus abdominus during abdominal exercises.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1996 Dec;77(12):1293-7.
PMID: 8976314 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

10: Vera-Garcia FJ, Grenier SG, McGill SM.
Abdominal muscle response during curl-ups on both stable and labile surfaces.
Phys Ther. 2000 Jun;80(6):564-9.
PMID: 10842409 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

11: Warden SJ, Wajswelner H, Bennell KL.
Comparison of Abshaper and conventionally performed abdominal exercises using
surface electromyography.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Nov;31(11):1656-64.
PMID: 10589871 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

12: Guimaraes AC, Vaz MA, De Campos MI, Marantes R.
The contribution of the rectus abdominis and rectus femoris in twelve selected
abdominal exercises. An electromyographic study.
J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1991 Jun;31(2):222-30.
PMID: 1836517 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

13: Bird M, Fletcher KM, Koch AJ.
Electromyographic comparison of the ab-slide and crunch exercises.
J Strength Cond Res. 2006 May;20(2):436-40.
PMID: 16686576 [PubMed - in process]

14: Moraes AC, Bankoff AD, Almeida TL, Simoes EC, Rodrigues CE, Okano AH.
Using weights in abdominal exercises: electromyography response of the Rectus
Abdominis and Rectus Femoris muscles.
Electromyogr Clin Neurophysiol. 2003 Dec;43(8):487-96.
PMID: 14717029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[dkm1987]

One last comment before I drag my butt to the shop and get some work done.

Even when the muscles have multiple endplates and neural compartments this wouldn't mean that these compartments can be recruited individually as this is a means to avoid damage resulting from overstretching of non active sarcomeres. So in the case of the sartorius, because it's so long, all this does is remove the latency along the length of the fascicle.

Ok nuff said gotta go to work.

 

[Lol]

Very interesting and certainly something you don't read everyday! I love this forum.

 

[Fausto]

Dan

You seem to have enough electromyography stuff in store, what I posted is old but it is the only thing I got, and I agree with you there is a lot lacking in there!

Got anything better? Would be nice to even have a sticky here to prove our point as to the best exercises and have the proof as a billboard! What do you think?

 

[faz]

<div>
(Old and Grey @ Sep. 06 2006,22:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My intuition stands corrected!

Thanks for the references.

This old dog just learned a new trick.    

</div>
old &amp; grey i agree with you and tot that 1 meal a day is not a good idea mostly because it would be difficult to get it all in one meal.
but i hate going on forums when people always give out advise saying eat 8 small meals a day and you will lose weight,when that is not correct.
i eat when i am hungry i guess you would say i am an intuative eater but maybe we should all listen to our bodies a bit more.
my theory (and thats all it is) is that if the body stores fat and uses it when needed,
then if we lift heavy weights the body knows we need more muscle,so wouldnt it save some protein just in case

here is something i just spotted on another forum.

Stop hating your body, stop counting calories and stop using food for purposes other than to satisfy hunger, and you'll be healthier and slimmer. That, in a nutshell, is the argument in favor of &quot;intuitive eating,&quot; or letting your body tell you when, what and how much to eat.

&quot;The basic premise of intuitive eating is, rather than manipulate what we eat in terms of prescribed diets -- how many calories a food has, how many grams of fat, specific food combinations or anything like that -- we should take internal cues, try to recognize what our body wants and then regulate how much we eat based on hunger and satiety,&quot; says professor of health science Steven Hawks, lead researcher of an intuitive-eating study at Brigham Young University.

The findings are reported in the American Journal of Health Education.

Hawks, who adopted an intuitive-eating lifestyle himself several years ago and lost 50 pounds as a result, says that &quot;normal&quot; dieting in the United States doesn't result in long-term weight loss and contributes to food anxiety and unhealthy eating practices, and can even lead to eating disorders.

All Diets Work Against Human Biology

Hawks and colleagues Hala Madanat, Jaylyn Hawks and Ashley Harris identified a handful of college students who were naturally intuitive eaters and compared them with other students who were not. Participants then were tested to enumuate their health.

As measured by the Intuitive Eating Scale, developed by Hawks and others to measure the degree to which a person is an intuitive eater, the researchers found that intuitive eating correlated significantly with lower body mass index (BMI), lower triglyceride levels, higher levels of high density lipoproteins and decreased risk of cardiovascular disease.

Approximately one-third of the variance in body mass index was accounted for by intuitive eating scores, while 17 to 19 percent of the variance in blood lipid profiles and cardiovascular risk was accounted for by intuitive eating.

&quot;The findings provide support for intuitive eating as a positive approach to healthy weight management,&quot; says Hawks, who plans to do a large-scale study of intuitive eating across several cultures.

&quot;In less developed countries in Asia, people are primarily intuitive eaters,&quot; notes Hawks.

&quot;They haven't been conditioned to artificially structure their relationship with food like we have in the United States. They’ve been conditioned to believe that the purpose of food is to enjoy, to nurture. You eat when you're hungry, you stop when you're not hungry any more. They have a much healthier relationship with food, far fewer eating disorders, and interestingly, far less obesity,&quot; he points out.

&quot;What makes intuitive eating different from a diet, is that all diets work against human biology, whereas intuitive eating teaches people to work with their own biology, to work with their bodies, to understand their bodies,&quot; Hawks explains.

&quot;Rather than a prescriptive diet, it's really about increasing awareness and understanding of your body. It's a nurturing approach to nutrition, health and fitness as opposed to a regulated, coercive, restrictive approach. That's why diets fail, and that's why intuitive eating has a better chance of being successful in the long term,&quot; he maintains.

Two Attitudes, Two Behaviors

To become an intuitive eater, a person has to adopt two attitudes and two behaviors. The first attitude is body acceptance.

&quot;It’s an extremely difficult attitude adjustment for many people to make, but they have to come to a conscious decision that personal worth is not a function of body size,&quot; says Hawks. &quot;Rather than having an adversarial relationship with my body, where I have to control it, and force it to submit to my will so that I can make it thin, I'm going to value my body because it allows me to accomplish some higher good with my life.&quot;

The second attitude is that dieting is harmful.

&quot;Dieting does not lead to the results that people think it will lead to, and so I try to help people foster an anti-dieting attitude,&quot; says Hawks. &quot;You have to say to yourself, 'I will not base my food intake on diet plans, food-based rules, good and bad foods, all of that kind of thing.' For people who are deep into dietary restraint and dietary rules, again, that's a very difficult attitude adjustment to make, to give up all those rules.&quot;

The first behavior is learning how to not eat for emotional, environmental or social reasons.

&quot;Socially we eat all the time in our culture. We go out to eat ice cream if we break up with our boyfriend, we eat to celebrate, we eat when we're lonely, we eat when we're sad, we eat when we're stressed out,&quot; says Hawks. &quot;Being able to recognize all the emotional, environmental and cultural relationships we have with food and finding better ways to manage our emotions is part of the process.&quot;

The second behavior is learning how to interpret body signals, cravings and hunger, and how to respond in a healthy, positive, nurturing way.

Learning the body's signals can be difficult at first, but Hawks suggests thinking about hunger and satiety on a 10-point scale, where &quot;10&quot; is eating until one is sick and &quot;1&quot; is starving.

Intuitive eaters keep themselves at or around a &quot;5.&quot; If they feel they are getting hungry, they eat until they are back at a &quot;5&quot; or &quot;6.&quot; They stop eating when they're satisfied, even if that means leaving food on the plate.

No Food Is Taboo

One part of intuitive eating that may be counterintuitive to people conditioned to restrictive dieting is the concept that with intuitive eating there is a place for every food. In other words, there is no food that's ever taboo. There's no food you can't ever have.

&quot;Part of adopting an anti-dieting attitude is the recognition that you have unconditional permission to eat any kind of food that you want,&quot; says Hawks. &quot;And that's scary for people who say, 'If I abandon my diet rules, then I'll fill a pillowcase full of M&amp;M's, dive into it and never come up again. That's what I crave, I know that's what I crave, that's all I will always crave.' But that’s not the reality. The reality is that our bodies crave good nutrition.&quot;

It is dieting that creates psychological and physiological urges to binge on taboo foods. While people may experience some binges when they first start eating intuitively, they eventually will learn to trust themselves and that behavior will disappear, Hawks maintains.

One technique he suggests is having an abundance of previously taboo foods on hand. Once the foods are no longer forbidden, a person quickly loses interest in them.

&quot;If people are committed to recognizing what their bodies really want, the vast majority of people will say that they very quickly overcame cravings,&quot; Hawks says, opening an office desk drawer filled with untouched junk food. &quot;It certainly has worked for me.&quot;

 

[imported_etothepii]

My intuition is skewed by a short circuit in the brain. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have a mental/eating disorder but it's got to be close. Left to my own devices, I over eat on a large scale. I pretty much need fitday to compensate for my tendency to ignore, or failure to perceive my internal signals.

 

[Old and Grey]

No Food Is Taboo

&quot;One part of intuitive eating that may be counterintuitive to people conditioned to restrictive dieting is the concept that with intuitive eating there is a place for every food. In other words, there is no food that's ever taboo. There's no food you can't ever have.&quot;

Yes, Arnold, there is a God! Thank you Jesus! I'm merrily off to BurgerKing for their triple Whopper (sans mayo) large fries and diet coke. Beef tacos for dinner tonight. Life is GOOD!

 

[faz]

<div>
(etothepii @ Sep. 07 2006,15:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My intuition is skewed by a short circuit in the brain. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have a mental/eating disorder but it's got to be close. Left to my own devices, I over eat on a large scale. I pretty much need fitday to compensate for my tendency to ignore, or failure to perceive my internal signals.</div>
normally if you are craving for food its your bodies way of telling you that its lacking something.
are you getting all the nutrients that your body requires.
O&amp;G

Yes, Arnold, there is a God! Thank you Jesus! I'm merrily off to BurgerKing for their triple Whopper (sans mayo) large fries and diet coke. Beef tacos for dinner tonight. Life is GOOD!

 

[dkm1987]

<div>
(Fausto @ Sep. 07 2006,10:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dan

You seem to have enough electromyography stuff in store, what I posted is old but it is the only thing I got, and I agree with you there is a lot lacking in there!

Got anything better? Would be nice to even have a sticky here to prove our point as to the best exercises and have the proof as a billboard! What do you think?

</div>
I'm not saying what you posted isn't useful or incorrect, it just doesn't tell us the whole picture.

Best exercises?, I don't think there is such a thing. I'm not skirting the question here but in order to ID what is best we would first need to know, best for what? Then how would manipulating the variables (contraction speed, load, volume/TUT, eccentric/concentric) with that movement affect the growth response. Not to mention the difference between acute and chronic.

That's why I personally found the new study adding some new metrics to traditional studys an interesting idea.

 

[dkm1987]

<div>
(Lol @ Sep. 07 2006,09:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">certainly something you don't read everyday!</div>
Ummm

I do

 

[Totentanz]

<div>
(etothepii @ Sep. 07 2006,10:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My intuition is skewed by a short circuit in the brain. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have a mental/eating disorder but it's got to be close. Left to my own devices, I over eat on a large scale. I pretty much need fitday to compensate for my tendency to ignore, or failure to perceive my internal signals.</div>
I'm the opposite. If I just eat whatever I am hungry for, I start to lose weight. I have to count calories if I want to gain or even just maintain my weight... It sucks, but I'm used to it now.
People ask me constantly how I can eat such large meals and not get fat. I ask them how they can eat so little and not waste away. Haha.