nkl's training log

2008-11-29:
Weight: 72,8 kg (160,2 lbs) (+0,5 kg [1,1 lbs] from yesterday) (+3,3 kg [7,3 lbs] from start, 101 days ago)
Routine: Recovery
Energy expenditure: 2482 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 410 kcal; TEM: 436 kcal)
Energy intake: 2995 kcal (+513 kcal)
Macros: 46% (291g) P; 30% (215g) C; 24% (77g) F
 
2008-11-30:
Weight: 72,1 kg (158,6 lbs) (-0,7 kg [-1,5 lbs] from yesterday) (+2,6 kg [5,7 lbs] from start, 102 days ago)
Routine: Recovery
Energy expenditure: 2339 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 265 kcal; TEM: 438 kcal)
Energy intake: 2975 kcal (+635 kcal)
Macros: 45% (287g) P; 35% (249g) C; 19% (61g) F

Guns: 33 cm (13 in.) Ah! They are back!

Waist: Not fair to measure due to excessive eating hours prior to writing (added some inches just from filled stomach). Might check after WO tomorrow.

Caliper: 15 mm something (hard to get a fix, even from several readings).

And finally some graphs from my BodyComp program (I've got weight and intake data for 102 days straight!! to calibrate the parameters):
2008-11-30.jpg

EDIT: As you can see, my SD failed miserably (approx. day 43-60) as I lost plenty of LBM due to too low protein and lack of physical activity when injured (no protein retention). Not until day 60 I got some things under control. The past two weeks has been tremendous both for growth and strength (back to 5RM Maxes on 5x5) when upping the calories (thanks to the BodyComp program that showed my error in judgement).

As my recorded BW and the predicted BW differ just slightly, this would allow for some food bulk in the digestion system (containing mostly water). The initial BW (day 0) makes a world of difference to the fit of the graph. I adjusted it 700 grams to get better alignment. I agree that it looks very nice to gain mostly LBM, but it is a lot of water (more transparent areas). Fat gain is dependent on fat intake and DNL, else there is no other mechanism to *magically* turn anything to fat. And from this simulation, not that much DNL is going on, unless you really spike your carbs (happened a few times). Keeping a low fat intake does make a difference. If I only had more reliable readings on body comp than that of a skinfold caliper (one site) I could validate this.

Here is the energy balance graphs for Metabolizable Energy Intake (MEI) vs. Total Energy Expenditure (TEE); Fat Intake (FI) vs. Oxidation; Protein Intake (PI) vs. Oxidation; and Carbohydrate Intake (CI) vs. Oxidation, and different processes such as DNL, GNG both from protein (p) and fat (f), added or subtracted:
2008-11-30b.jpg


From day 103 on is pure prediction. We'll see how that goes. By keeping the physical activity up, the fat gain can be kept at bay, or by keeping fat intake low.
 
2008-12-01:
Weight: 72,5 kg (159,5 lbs) (+0,4 kg [0,9 lbs] from yesterday) (+3,0 kg [6,6 lbs] from start, 103 days ago)
Routine: 5x5 A (Core 5x5: Squat, Bench, Row; Aux 3x5: Wrist, Hyper, Abs)
Energy expenditure: 2825 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 710 kcal; TEM: 479 kcal)
Energy intake: 3542 kcal (+717 kcal)
Macros: 40% (299g) P; 42% (356g) C; 18% (68g) F
 
2008-12-02:
Weight: 72,8 kg (160,2 lbs) (+0,3 kg [0,7 lbs] from yesterday) (+3,3 kg [7,3 lbs] from start, 104 days ago)
Routine: Recovery
Energy expenditure: 2547 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 510 kcal; TEM: 402 kcal)
Energy intake: 2643 kcal (+95 kcal)
Macros: 48% (272g) P; 31% (195g) C; 21% (58g) F

The BodyComp program says my BMR is c:a 1830 due to increased metabolism (TEE:2666).

I've cut down some on protein and carbs, in order to lessen protein oxidation and leave room for continous increases of both, according to plan. Here is some details:

I'll start with FI: 68,7 PI: 272,4 CI: 316,5 WO days / FI: 68,7 PI: 272,3 CI: 196,3 OFF days gradually increasing and after 600 days I'll end with a maintenace of FI: 68,7 PI: 353,0 CI: 403,1 WO / FI: 68,7 PI: 352,7 CI: 282,8 OFF, packing (hopefully) 13 kg more LBM and 1 kg less fat (13,6 BF%).
The trick to starve off fat is to do a cutting week after two weeks of bulking (there is the ABCDE ghost lurking again). The cutting week is FI: 68,7 PI: 277,4 CI: 152,5 WO / FI: 68,7 PI: 277,8 CI: 32,5 OFF to begin with, if I can make it that low on carbs while keeping protein that high (stuffing low fat ham, tuna and cottage cheese).

By keeping protein high, mass can be preserved - that was my biggest mistake on my cut and SD - I figured 100+ grams would do, but protein oxidation didn't adjust that fast and oxidation ate away my precious mass gained, and some more (to kick me where it hurts the most). Lesson learned: Do not drop protein to quickly and keep lifting heavy while cutting (but on a SD you'll have to keep out of the gym).

Tomorrow is a WO day. Looking forward to it as strength continues to increase.
 
<div>
(nkl @ Dec. 02 2008,5:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The trick to starve off fat is to do a cutting week after two weeks of bulking (there is the ABCDE ghost lurking again). The cutting week is FI:  68,7 PI: 277,4 CI: 152,5 WO / FI:  68,7 PI: 277,8 CI:  32,5 OFF to begin with, if I can make it that low on carbs while keeping protein that high (stuffing low fat ham, tuna and cottage cheese).

By keeping protein high, mass can be preserved - that was my biggest mistake on my cut and SD - I figured 100+ grams would do, but protein oxidation didn't adjust that fast and oxidation ate away my precious mass gained, and some more (to kick me where it hurts the most). Lesson learned: Do not drop protein to quickly and keep lifting heavy while cutting (but on a SD you'll have to keep out of the gym).</div>
Protein seems to be a key factor in maintaining muscle mass. Lyle's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook recommends as much as 1.5 to 2.0 grams per pound of LBM.

I've had a lot of luck using low fat cottage cheese.
 
Nkl, I think what is missing in your calculations is the amount of calories burned from doing all that math
smile.gif
 
Oh, my dear! Visitors! Welcome all!

Just a quick round-up: This is the accumulation of information I have put together from the works of several equally nutty researchers/textbooks/mad scientists and one and a half year of bouncing ideas around in this forum. Essentially nothing new, only put into a computer model (first conceived by Hall, then adapted by me, and currently hardcoded for me). Then why all the fuzz when nothing new? Curiosity! What happens under the hood? The black box un-mystified. Isn't that what drives us all? To know. To keep searching for answers. To know thy self. What makes you tick. I call it learning by doing. As old Albert put it: &quot;Wisdom is not a product of schooling, but of the life-long attempt to acquire it.&quot; I couldn't phrase it better myself. Or the mad scientist (me) have re-created the wheel: Lift, eat, recover. Repeat. Or?

I would like to show you something: This is my planned *lean* bulk
(FI:  68,7 PI: 272,4 CI: 316,5 WO days /  FI:  68,7 PI: 272,3 CI: 196,3 OFF days gradually increasing and then
I'll end with a maintenace of FI:  68,7 PI: 353,0 CI: 403,1 WO / FI:  68,7 PI: 352,7 CI: 282,8 OFF):
lean-bulk.jpg

Magic lean bulk. Now watch this one: This is a *normal* bulk
(FI:  68,7 PI: 175,4 CI: 419,2 WO / FI:  68,7 PI: 175,2 CI: 299,1 OFF gradually increasing to
FI:  68,7 PI: 251,1 CI: 489,9 WO / FI:  68,7 PI: 250,9 CI: 369,7 OFF):
fat-bulk.jpg

Do you notice the enormous fat gain compared to the graph above? Simulation says a fat gain of 3,87 kg (and a LBM gain of 9,52 kg - genetic max LBM changes with BF%). This fat gain is from DNL alone as fat is kept the same low (69 g). The only difference is that I entered 100 grams less for intial protein and put those 100 into carbs. Same calorie balance. Different results. Imagine what some kcals in the wrong place can do if kept unchecked.

Is these results bizarre and not in touch with reality? Where do DNL come from? Not protein - it is oxidized, when not stored as LBM. Carbs? You bet! Keeping those glycogen stores on a sane level is the trick (my DNL limit in the graph is just an estimation - DNL occurs all the time, but fat oxidation keep counteracting it). Lifting weights is soooo important to deplete glycogen stores and keep the balance. Simply eat excess with no lifting - you grow fat. The more you burn while working out the better. In fact, it's better to do a carb depletion workout to burn extra calories than just cutting (and loosing beef). But that is old news. Well, I hope you take care with those carbs, but keep 'em comin' or you will not grow as much.

Ah, I'll finish off with some daily stats.

2008-12-03:
Weight: 72,3 kg (159,1 lbs) (-0,5 kg [-1,1 lbs] from yesterday) (+2,8 kg [6,2 lbs] from start, 105 days ago)
Routine: 5x5 B (Core 4x5: Squat, Press, Deads; Aux 3x5: Chins, Dips, Abs)
Energy expenditure: 2735 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 665 kcal; TEM: 434 kcal)
Energy intake: 3220 kcal (+485 kcal)
Macros: 40% (271g) P; 41% (318g) C; 19% (65g) F
 
interesting nkl:

1) so the upper plot is bulking without any real trickery or lean gain machinations, save swapping out carbs for extra protein? How did you assess your upper limit for carb intake?

2) can't AA be converted into fat? (I should know this as I'm taking biochem, hahaah but I don't)
If not, and say excess protein must be oxidized, why doesn't protein surplus lead to DNL indirectly and grind ordinary fat oxidation to a halt ----> the same result?

or is it just the extra thermic effect of protein making it seem as if you're eating less (net)?
 
Colby, it's a java program (EDIT: sorry electric - I addressed the wrong post). I use excel to log my caloric intake and expenditure, that is then exported to the java program as input.

being,

1) Upper level for carb intake is built into the functions. As carb intake increases, DNL increases as well, but the more saturated the glycogen stores becomes (thus unable to efficiently store carbs) , the greater the DNL. In the graph I have just put markers for the likelyhood of excessive DNL, based on data from &quot;Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man&quot; by Acheson KJ. By using carb depletion methods, glycogen levels did reach 100-200 grams (not lower). From the data, the Acheson notes that &quot;the glycogen stores can maximally accomodate 800-900 grams and perhaps as much as 1-1.1 kg in trained athletes.&quot; Acheson also conclude that &quot;de novo lipogenesis does not contribute to increasing the body fat stores even when very large amounts of carbohydrate (500 g) are occasionally consumed.&quot; This is the basis of the CKD carb loading. &quot;Our data suggest  that glycogen stores must increase by ~500 g before appreciable de novo  lipogenesis  begins. Provided that massive amounts of carbohdrate continue to be ingested, the glycogen stores become saturated so the only way of disposing of additional excess carbohydrate is by fat synthesis in addition to maximal use of glycose for energy generation.&quot;

So for estimating my upper limit, I used a baseline G level that made the simulation fit the data (450 g), some 50 grams less than the baseline from the Ancel Keys semi-starvation experiment (500 g).  The 450 g is the 0 line in the graph.

2) I have researched this topic and have found no plausable way for proteins to convert into fat. However, proteins may contribute to GNG, but that primarily occurs in the catabolic state, but also to a small extent when protein intake is changed above baseline level (counteracted by a larger decrease when carb levels change). But for GNG to make an effect, glycogen stores should be rather saturated, and we cannot be both catabolic AND anabolic. DNL from protein is thus left out of the picture.

But fat oxidation is an important parameter. As caloric intake changes fat oxidation fraction actually does change, as the ratio of fat:pro:cho oxidation changes.  Here is the calculations: FatOx = fF*(TEE-GNGf-GNGp); ProtOx = fP*(TEE-GNGf-GNGp); CarbOx = GNGf+GNGp+fC*(TEE-GNGf-GNGp), where fF, fP, and fC are the fractions (how they are computed are more complex, but follow simple rules - higher intake and fuller stores = more is oxidized; more protein is retained if physical activity is high, etc.).

So, what about fat oxidation? Excess calories from carbs will rob the flames from the fat oxidation. Additionally, lipolysis of TG results in the release of glycerol that can be converted to glucose via GNG. It has been shown that glycerol disappearance can be fully accounted for by glucose production. Because glycerol cannot be used by adipose tissue for TG synthesis due to lack of glycerol kinase, all glycerol is eventually oxidized. All glycerol enters the GNG pathway. This is one part of the GNGf. So any lipolysis occuring adds to the flames of carb oxidation.

Any change in fat mass is from three parts: fat intake, DNL and fat oxidation. If fat intake is low, only the balance between DNL and fat oxidation makes a difference. On a higher carb intake the DNL increases and fat oxidation decreases, while on a higher protein intake, the DNL does not increase, even if fat oxidation decreases. That's the trick: Keep DNL low by not going to high on carbs.  And I have not yet talked about insulin...

The thermic effect surely does have a role, but it is still an excess of calories that drives the LBM gains.

Some sources: De novo lipogenesis in humans- metabolic and regulatory aspects - Hellerstein
Carbohydrate as a nutrient in adults- range of acceptable intakes - Macdonald
Changes in macronutrient balance during over- and underfeeding assessed by 12-d continuous whole-body calorimetry - Jebb et al

Some stats:

2008-12-04:
Weight: 72,6 kg (159,7 lbs) (+0,3 kg [0,7 lbs] from yesterday) (+3,1 kg [6,8 lbs] from start, 106 days ago)
Routine: Recovery
Energy expenditure: 2455 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 455 kcal; TEM: 364 kcal)
Energy intake: 2418 kcal (-37 kcal)
Macros: 47% (242g) P; 35% (200g) C; 18% (47g) F
Protein at 3.3 g/kg
 
<div>
(nkl @ Dec. 04 2008,8:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">electric, it's a java program. I use excel to log my caloric intake and expenditure, that is then exported to the java program as input.</div>
I could smell the JFreeChart from here.
smile.gif
 
thank you for the informative post NKL, as always its very interesting and stimulating

1) I am a bit graph stupid I have to admit. What would you say the p ratio is based on the lean bulk vs the regular bulk?

2) I can't wrap my head around excess energy in the form of protein being oxidized without a net storage going on by some mechanism. About GNG, I know it happens in catabolism but I'm not sure it doesn't happen in a hypercaloric state. I'm gonna go nag lyle!

My little 4 lb bulk pissed me the hell off (my p ratio is just average I guess, which should be good enough for me, narcissist that I am, but I don't appreciate looking down from the new thickness in the pecs and seeing my blurry abs lol)

so here I am looking for the magic bullet again, and I hope you have it! Otherwise I'm gonna be keto bulking soon I imagine (clutching at straws here!)
 
electric (got it right this time), JFreeChart odor it is...

being,

1) Please don't ask. Actually, I'm not sure what to say. The whole plan is a mixture of EOD and plain old PSMF with a taste of ABCDE diet... The 2w EOD bulking include some fat gain - I have not computed any p-ratio for any intervals (nor the entire megacycle). Then there is the 1w PSMF that sheds the fat gained (and some more - that is at least what I had in mind). Rinse and repeat. So how should I compute the p-ratio? For the whole 3w? I'm not sure. I only know that the high protein bulk gives better partitioning.

2) From data, the net storage is protein. Then the researchers think there is some errors in their way of measuring N balance... As we increase the intake, oxidation follows. Some studies indicate that this adaptation happens immediately, but then the storage and degradation shows a net surplus over 24h. Some people points to the danger of having a high protein intake, because you'll loose mass during the night fast. But then again, some other data indicate that for protein synthesis to work efficiently, the protein must appear quickly in the blood to give the synthesis an extra push. Continous supply make the synthesis sluggish after a while. Eating fewer larger meals adds more mass than when eating meals spread out over the 24hrs. Going of tangent here, am I? Maybe a little. My point is this - The swings make protein synthesis synthesize more so a overnight fast might be a good thing (then we wonder what that casein we stuff at night do to the long term protein accretion?). And by the way, do go nag Lyle - after all, he wrote the book on protein (I haven't got that one - it's on my wich list though). Maybe we'll get some new input to punch around.

I thought you went to the cutting very soon after you started your bulk, but that's time flying by. I had myself some weeks of good progress and I think the man in the mirror is getting thinner around the waist, not fatter, but it might be a deception (ratio: upper body mass increases). If this is a magic bullet, you will soon know. I won't keep it a secret. First off I'll see if the sim and reality do match up in the future as well. I certainly hope so. Catching the magic bullet is no easy feat. We're millions trying to do just that. Will the scientific approach prevail?

EDIT: Stats...

2008-12-05:
Weight: 72,1 kg (158,6 lbs) (-0,5 kg [-1,1 lbs] from yesterday) (+2,6 kg [5,7 lbs] from start, 107 days ago)
Routine: 5x5 C (Core: 4x5,3x3,1x18: Squat, Bench, Row; Aux 3x5: Curls, Tri-Ext, Wrist)
Energy expenditure: 2687 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 620 kcal; TEM: 432 kcal)
Energy intake: 3210 kcal (+523 kcal)
Macros: 39% (268g) P; 42% (323g) C; 18% (63g) F
 
2008-12-06:
Weight: 71,5 kg (157,2 lbs) (-0,7 kg [-1,4 lbs] from yesterday) (+1,9 kg [4,3 lbs] from start, 108 days ago)
Routine: Recovery
Energy expenditure: 2511 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 450 kcal; TEM: 425 kcal)
Energy intake: 2959 kcal (+448 kcal)
Macros: 43% (274g) P; 36% (255g) C; 20% (64g) F
 
FWIW I don't think I'm ever going low carb again after this mini cut nkl!

I think leaning out as really changed my insulin sensitivity (for the better) and made me a carb addict.

My god this hurt!

I'm glad you can afford all that protein, dunno how prices are over there, but over here in NY lean protein is a bank breaker these days!!!

White pasta for the win! lol
 
being, protein isn't cheap anywhere... I try to go for the cheapest protein sources like egg whites, chicken, cottage cheece, and whey, and combined sources like low fat milk, pasta, and bulgur (that is my diet in a nutshell - just add some servings of vegetables and dressing too). I was hoping to get some fruit in there as well.

The trick is to go for the cheapest alternatives. I calculated the other day that drinking 6 litres of low fat milk a day would come close to the mark (210 g protein, 300 g carbs, and 30 g fat) - but hey - who do live on milk?!? (infants... and they do grow, don't they!?!) - But it is cheap! We got 25% value added tax (VAT) on our groceries, and it's still 36 SEK (currently 4.30 USD) a day (Ouch! I could get 6.50 USD a couple of months ago for the same amount of money - USD has become expensive!). I bet you get 2 gallons of milk cheaper than that.

BTW, what hurt? Carb addiction?

Well, here is some stats...

2008-12-07:
Weight: 72,2 kg (158,9 lbs) (+0,8 kg [1,7 lbs] from yesterday) (+2,7 kg [6,0 lbs] from start, 109 days ago)
Routine: Recovery
Energy expenditure: 2269 kcal (BMR: 1636 kcal; Activities: 220 kcal; TEM: 413 kcal)
Energy intake: 2648 kcal (+379 kcal)
Macros: 49% (276g) P; 37% (232g) C; 14% (40g) F
 
2008-12-08:
Weight: 72,8 kg (160,2 lbs) (+0,6 kg [1,3 lbs] from yesterday) (+3,3 kg [7,3 lbs] from start, 110 days ago)
Routine: 5x5 A (Core 5x5: Squat, Bench, Row; Aux 3x5: Wrist, Hyper, Abs)
Energy expenditure: 2956 kcal (BMR: 1800 kcal; Activities: 710 kcal; TEM: 446 kcal)
Energy intake: 3324 kcal (+368 kcal)
Macros: 39% (276g) P; 43% (338g) C; 18% (64g) F

Soon I will dare post my weights... new (modest) PRs are made every week on 5x5.
 
thanks nkl

what hurt is low carbing. I never seemed to adapt the way I used to. Felt as if my body never made the 'shift'

maybe I am carb addicted? Probably not, I'd imagine if this was real and had a physiological base in a hypercaloric state it'd lead to monstrous fat gain, and it didnt.

I'll be popping in to run my new cycle plans by you! Not sure what I want to do yet. First order of business is to deload and lift light for two weeks and ace my finals!
 
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