No Bulking; No Cutting

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Tom Treutlein, Dec 22, 2004.

  1. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    I see more people today talking about how they don't really do 'bulk' and 'cut' cycles. Rather, they try to add lean mass all year round.

    First off, is this not healthier? It can't be too good for the body to be going in drastic cycles of bulking and cutting.

    Second, how does one go about doing this? What components would be ideal for it? HST for training, with HIIT for cardio? How much food (roughly)?

    Third, I don't even understand the term 'lean mass' anyway. I know what it means, I just don't see it being very viable.
     
  2. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    Hi, that's exactly what I do. No formal Bulking or Cutting cycles. Just body recomposition cycles. I will say that the focus of these can be shifted towards more muscle gain at the expense of fatloss, and then more towards fat loss and muscle retention.

    What works for me is a TKD type diet with carb ups following my HST workouts. Then I eat hypocaloric and low carb the other 4 days of the week and before training. It looks like this.

    Monday-low calorie/carbs during the day---HST(pm)---Carbloading until bed.

    Tuesday-Low cal/carb---HIIT(pm)

    Wednesday-Low cal/carb---off

    Thursday-Low cal/carb--HST(pm) Carbload until bed

    Friday-Low cal/carb--off

    Saturday-HST(am)-Carb load for the rest of the day.

    Sunday-HIIT(am)-Low cal/carb

    The level of calories is determined by my focus at the time. During the fall and early winter I will loosen up on the diet a bit and the carbups will be slightly higher calorie as will the rest of the days. During the late winter/spring and summer, the calorie levels are kept lower for all days. These aren't drastic swings in calorie levels. While cutting, a typical low calorie day will be around 1900-2000 calories but while "bulking", that will be around 2200-2300 calories.

    Lean mass=Muscle (also included is ant tissue that is not fat)
     
  3. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    As I said, I understand what lean mass means. I just don't see it as being possible to add simply lean mass. Perhaps that's just been drilled into my head from those who choose to add fat while adding mass, but most science seems to say that without the aid of anabolics, it is very difficult and near impossible to add mass without it being accompanied by fat.

    I suppose all it really is, is eating excess calories, but at such a minor level that minimal fat is added. The term bulking has been associated with stuffing one's face and adding as much mass as possible, while disregarding the fat. That's my take, anyway.

    Many also seem to overshoot the need for calories on any given day.
     
  4. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    I have not bulked or cut in recent years. I believe you are correct in that it is not the healthiest way to resupply your body. I stay at about 250 calories over maintenance and have added 15 pounds of weight and dropped body fat from 18% to 9% in a little over 2 years while using HST. The key for me is to make those extra 250 or so calories come from protein and/or good fats and not carbs or bad fats. Interestingly, my maintenance amount of calories has increased significantly since my bodyfat has decreased. My maintenance used to be about 2300 calories per day and today it is about 2700. I don't follow a strict diet. I just compensate over the rest of the day or week if, for instance, I am in a situation where a jelly donut or a smattering of seasonal treats are foistered upon me. I just mentally keep track of where the approximate calories are coming from. I can't see writing down in a little book an analysis of everything I ate or drank at a social function. Of course, that could be a splendid method to insure that I don't get invited back again next year! [​IMG]
     
  5. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    My appologies for misreading.

    I have done the traditional type cycles with mixed results. I get way too fat when bulking and lose way too much muscle while cutting. This way, the results come more slowly, but they are much more acceptable.
     
  6. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    O&G, that is simply amazing. I commend you on those results. You must be proud.

    So you use what formula to determine your maintenance?

    And you say you eat only 250 calories above that level? Does that change on training days, or do you maintain a constant level of calories?

    Why wouldn't you let the extra calories come from carbs? Do you feel excess carbs add fat to your frame easier than anything else?

    What kind've macro breakdown do you use? 1g/lb. protein? How much fat and carbs?

    Steve, don't worry about misreading. Not a big deal. How do you feel about carbs only for activity? Or mixing carbs and fats? I know this is such a debatable topic, and even Bryan has said before that his body doesn't always appreciate excess carbs.
     
  7. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    I can tolerate high GI carbs only around training. I do my best to ensure as much glycogen depletion in between carbups to help this along though. I also utilize vinegar with my carbups to aid in glycogen repletion. For my low carb days, I eat only oatmeal, some fruit, veggies. I usually won't even eat any carbs before training unless it's first thing in the morning. Then I will have 20g of dextrose with my pre wo shake.

    I don't normally mix high GI carbs with fat (fish oil being the exception). Other than that, I don't really pay much attention to it.
     
  8. Lance

    Lance New Member

    I'm experimenting with lean gaining myself. I have found, that whether hypercaloric or hypocaloric, low carbs seem to blunt fat production. It could be just not retaining water as much, but whatever. Lol.
     
  9. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tom

    I'll try to answer your questions:

    My maintenance calories have been determined by trial and error. None of the formulas seemed to work well for me. The scale and fat calipers tell me how I am doing.

    I maintain a pretty constant caloric level. I may vary from day to day but over a week's worth of time I average out to 250 over maintenance.

    Carbs seem to go directly to sitting on top of my obliques so I keep them on the low side.

    I get close to 250 grams of protein per day from food, no supplementation. I usually end up around 35-40%% P, 25% C and 35-40%% from non-trans fats. If you would like to learn more about the benefits of good fats, I suggest you visit Udo Erasmus' website here

    Udo is the father of fats and I found him easy and willing to communicate with directly.
     
  10. vicious

    vicious New Member

    O&G's strategy especially works if you target your carbs around your workout. As long as your muscles have sufficient glycogen, you're good carb-wise for growth.

    cheers,
    Jules
     
  11. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    no hes not

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    So really, there's not a large need for carbs? One could get by with just enough around training?

    Jules, how do you feel about using carbs for activity only? Is that probably a better choice for minimizing fat gained?
     
  13. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Ummmmm, well then, Udo is the mother of fats! [​IMG]
     
  14. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    no hes not

    [​IMG]
     
  15. vicious

    vicious New Member

    I think it helps, for the sake of recovery, energy, and general morale, to saturate your muscles with glycogen and water. Studies have shown that after heavy exercise, you can ingest up to something like a 1000 calories of carbs (not that you'd want to ;) ) with rather minimal gain in fat. I do a little HIIT even through a "bulking" cycle just to facilitate this. Ffor the rest of day, I eat very moderate amounts of low-GI carbs, mainly to keep my blood sugar at a reasonable level.

    Really, most trainees end up doing this too to keep
    everything in check. I don't think the carb cycling techniques are necessary until you need to get shredded.

    I believe that, when it comes to gaining, you train according to how you eat. If you can't justify a 1000 calorie surplus in your exercise regimen, then don't eat 1000 surplus calories. After the first week, it can only go straight to your belly. Only thing in your stomach should be meat and beer!

    cheers,
    Jules
     
  16. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    I think its best to get enough to stop ketosis (~100g) plus additional amounts to cover physical activity

    Dont think it will make a lot of difference in terms of fat gains.
     
  17. Aaron, why do you think that?
     
  18. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    There's so much science and so many experts sporting answers to that dilemma, and it's a dang seesaw battle. It's seriously irritating, because no one really has any concrete answer.

    In terms of hypertrophy, we've mainly figured out what causes it. Same with strength and neural adaptations.

    Now diet is still irking me.
     
  19. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    calories in - calories out.

    Problem solved.

    And for extra credit: deadlifts.
     
  20. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    because
     

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