Number of sets question
- Thread starter s2b33
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Bulldog
Active Member
It really is all personal preference. But doing one set in the 15's two sets in the 10's and three sets in the 5's keeps the number of reps per workout pretty close to the same. Some people think that is important and some don't think it is all that important. You will have to figure out what works best for you.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
15 to 30 reps per muscle group.
Think about how much work your muscles are doing during the 15s and the 10s. Loads don't go up much during the 5s really but the reps halve. So you can easily see that you will likely be doing less total work during 5s if you only do a single set. Keeping reps constant-'ish' over the cycle ensures that both load and work progress.
Once you get close to your RM loads, doing sets across (ie. at the same load) will get more difficult. It's a good idea to try to keep fatigue in check too or 3xweekly, full-body training will take it's toll more quickly. You really want to be able to maximise the time you can lift heavy.
So, to get your total required reps you can always use clustering, eg. for your 5RM loads you might end up doing 5, 3, 3, 2, 2 to get your 15 reps in and to reduce CNS fatigue.
Once you get close to your RM loads, doing sets across (ie. at the same load) will get more difficult. It's a good idea to try to keep fatigue in check too or 3xweekly, full-body training will take it's toll more quickly. You really want to be able to maximise the time you can lift heavy.
So, to get your total required reps you can always use clustering, eg. for your 5RM loads you might end up doing 5, 3, 3, 2, 2 to get your 15 reps in and to reduce CNS fatigue.
This has been a question I've been asking myself lately too. with the 1x15 2x10 3x5 model I keep injuring myself at the end of my cycles. Which leads me to believe its too much volume for me.
Anyways, in the FAQ it says 2x15 2x10 for first week 1x10 for second, 2x5 for first week, 1x 5 for second week...I tried this and 2x15 i found miserable...
My first cycle, I tried one set per exercise and I felt like this was too little.
Right now, I'm trying to find a happy medium so I'll be doing 1x15 2x10 for first week 1x10 for second week. 3x5 for first week 2x5 for second week...and beyond.
Anyways, long story short...you probably don't want to hear it but you gotta just see what works best for you.
No matter what school of thought you follow you will see gains if its your first cycle. For there just make adjustments.
Anyways, in the FAQ it says 2x15 2x10 for first week 1x10 for second, 2x5 for first week, 1x 5 for second week...I tried this and 2x15 i found miserable...
My first cycle, I tried one set per exercise and I felt like this was too little.
Right now, I'm trying to find a happy medium so I'll be doing 1x15 2x10 for first week 1x10 for second week. 3x5 for first week 2x5 for second week...and beyond.
Anyways, long story short...you probably don't want to hear it but you gotta just see what works best for you.
No matter what school of thought you follow you will see gains if its your first cycle. For there just make adjustments.
Peak_Power
New Member
Bryan states in the original HST instructions that it is LOAD that causes hypertrophy, and says do the minimum volume with progressive load to get hypertrophy, and you only need to do 1-2 sets. The general conensus on the boards (and Bryan has said a lot of stuff to support this view), that it is WORKLOAD that causes hypertrophy, ie. doing work/reps with a given load. If it was just load, and volume didn't matter, you could do 1 rep with your 1RM and grow like crazy. You still need to do work with that load.
Soo...a simple and very effective system that a lot of people on this board use (and I believe Bryan uses this as well) is volume constant HST, which means you set a target rep count, 15-30 per bodypart depending on your lifting experience, and then cluster your reps to make it to that rep with the load your using (always increasing), while staying away from failure. Ie. 1x15, 1.5x10, 3x5 is always 15 reps. 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 is close enough to that for it to be recommended to newbies, cause its simple. That's not to say that 1x15, 1x10, 1x5 won't give you growth, but people will find that 1x5 will not give good results, hence the misconception that "the 10s are for growth and the 5s are for strength". Doing enough work/reps with 5s weights will produce better hypertrophy than the 10s, because your workload is higher.
Soo...a simple and very effective system that a lot of people on this board use (and I believe Bryan uses this as well) is volume constant HST, which means you set a target rep count, 15-30 per bodypart depending on your lifting experience, and then cluster your reps to make it to that rep with the load your using (always increasing), while staying away from failure. Ie. 1x15, 1.5x10, 3x5 is always 15 reps. 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 is close enough to that for it to be recommended to newbies, cause its simple. That's not to say that 1x15, 1x10, 1x5 won't give you growth, but people will find that 1x5 will not give good results, hence the misconception that "the 10s are for growth and the 5s are for strength". Doing enough work/reps with 5s weights will produce better hypertrophy than the 10s, because your workload is higher.
I'm one of the guys that sticks to ONE set per rep scheme. Based on two completed cycles, I've gained 8 lbs of LBM and feel and truly believe my perceived effort on sets of 15 match my effort on 5's. You are using considerably heavier weights so my feeling (not just opinion) is that I'm working my body just as hard on 5's as 15's and 10's. Plus the time in the gym is somewhat key to me - doing 3 sets of 5 with as many exercises as I do would likely take 2 hours.
And to be honest, by the time my 5's mesocycle is done, I'm feeling it in my body (sore joints, needing SD) so to avoid injury and CNS burnout, I'm going to stay with one set till I stop seeing progress in size and bodyweight.
I'm 45 years old by the way - volume (aka overtraining) in the past caused shoulder problems, epicondylitis problems and wrist problems. Have them no more.
And to be honest, by the time my 5's mesocycle is done, I'm feeling it in my body (sore joints, needing SD) so to avoid injury and CNS burnout, I'm going to stay with one set till I stop seeing progress in size and bodyweight.
I'm 45 years old by the way - volume (aka overtraining) in the past caused shoulder problems, epicondylitis problems and wrist problems. Have them no more.
Hey, good to see another 40-something from Oregon!
Like Franko says, you hate to keep hearing it, but you just need to see what works for you. I tend to think that Peak Power's comments on total workload are on target. Assuming that you are using reasonably heavy weights, you probably won't go wrong as long as your workload (wt x sets) is progressing (or at least constant). How you do it -- whether increasing sets, clustering, linear progressions, or whatever -- is up to you.
I'm curious, Oregonian, it sounds like you may find your workload going down over the cycle -- have you figured this out?
Like Franko says, you hate to keep hearing it, but you just need to see what works for you. I tend to think that Peak Power's comments on total workload are on target. Assuming that you are using reasonably heavy weights, you probably won't go wrong as long as your workload (wt x sets) is progressing (or at least constant). How you do it -- whether increasing sets, clustering, linear progressions, or whatever -- is up to you.
I'm curious, Oregonian, it sounds like you may find your workload going down over the cycle -- have you figured this out?
9to5lifter
New Member
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Think about how much work your muscles are doing during the 15s and the 10s. Loads don't go up much during the 5s really but the reps halve. So you can easily see that you will likely be doing less total work during 5s if you only do a single set. Keeping reps constant-'ish' over the cycle ensures that both load and work progress.
Once you get close to your RM loads, doing sets across (ie. at the same load) will get more difficult. It's a good idea to try to keep fatigue in check too or 3xweekly, full-body training will take it's toll more quickly. You really want to be able to maximise the time you can lift heavy.
So, to get your total required reps you can always use clustering, eg. for your 5RM loads you might end up doing 5, 3, 3, 2, 2 to get your 15 reps in and to reduce CNS fatigue. </div>
I absolutely agree with Lol. My thoughts exactly.
Once you get close to your RM loads, doing sets across (ie. at the same load) will get more difficult. It's a good idea to try to keep fatigue in check too or 3xweekly, full-body training will take it's toll more quickly. You really want to be able to maximise the time you can lift heavy.
So, to get your total required reps you can always use clustering, eg. for your 5RM loads you might end up doing 5, 3, 3, 2, 2 to get your 15 reps in and to reduce CNS fatigue. </div>
I absolutely agree with Lol. My thoughts exactly.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
However the more expierenced you are or conditioned...I would recommend starting with higher % of your max weights and stay there for a 2 workouts and progress instead of progressing every workout with lighter weights.
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
How many sets should you do? Enough to cause the microtauma that it takes to build the muscle you want!! That's going to be somewhat different for different people, I suppose. I would rather err on the side of too many than too few, assuming injury and cns fatigue is avoided.
More sets than that may help achieve other goals, like burning calories, for example, or conditioning yourslef to have endurance for longer strength training bouts, if that's important.
I can attest to the fact that 2x15 SUCKS!!!! Especially dead lift. 1x15 makes my want to puke.
More sets than that may help achieve other goals, like burning calories, for example, or conditioning yourslef to have endurance for longer strength training bouts, if that's important.
I can attest to the fact that 2x15 SUCKS!!!! Especially dead lift. 1x15 makes my want to puke.
Firminator
New Member
When I started (about 5 yrs ago) I did 2 sets of everything. After a couple of cycles I found that 2 sets of 15 reps was too much for me - I was tired by the time I got to the 10's. I also found that 3 sets of 5's worked better for me than 2 sets did. I also tried 1 set of each and seemed to lose some size. I ended up with - 1 set of 15, 2 sets of 10 and 3 sets of 5's. Have pretty much stuck with it for the past 3 yrs or so. I have added clustering to my 5's when extending them.
Guess I'm saying what everyone else is saying - you're gonna have to try a few things to see what works for you. I would pick one - say - 2 sets of each and try it for a cycle. After that, if you had a good cycle - do it again. If not - tweek it where you think you may need it.
Good Luck
Firm
Guess I'm saying what everyone else is saying - you're gonna have to try a few things to see what works for you. I would pick one - say - 2 sets of each and try it for a cycle. After that, if you had a good cycle - do it again. If not - tweek it where you think you may need it.
Good Luck
Firm
You should do the least amount of volume that allows you to experience maximum growth. Most people do way to many sets. The extra effort usually isn't worth the minimal gains due to diminishing returns of repeated muscle trauma. However, what that ideal volume is requires an individual determination. Many factors come into play including chronological age, training age, genetics, T levels, E levels, etc. etc. For me, one set, no matter how many reps, seems to be ideal. However I usually do very intense but short (3-4 week) cycles and then SD. If I were doing longer cycles I would have to start each rep cycle with lower weights and I would need more volume. I currently start at 80%+ of my targeted rep max but go beyond the targeted reps and "rep out" to increase intensity. That allows me to use lowered volume. Please note that I am referring to volume as the amount in each total workout. I do not compromise on frequency and currently do 4 full body workout per week. If I were doing less than 4, I would have to increase my workout volume to get close to the same results. If you haven't already surmised it, I am prejudiced because I believe frequency is more conducive to hypertrophy than volume.
Paraphrased from the FAQ:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How Many Sets (i.e. how much volume)?
If you are doing HST properly you won't be able to just increase your volume at will - you should already be using as much volume as you can reasonably handle and still feel healthy (no injuries etc).
So, should you increase, maintain or decrease "volume" as the cycle progresses? Here is how you decide:
Increase volume if:
You are never sore
You are never tired
You are not growing
Maintain volume if:
You are slightly sore most of the time
You are tired enough to sleep well, but not so tired you lose motivation to train.
You are noticeably “fuller”
Decrease volume if:
You are experiencing over-use pain, and strain symptoms in joints and/or muscles.
You are tired and irritable all the time, yet don’t sleep well.
Strength levels are significantly decreasing.
Basically, perform as many sets as you can do without having to reduce the Load from set to set and without having to reduce the frequency beyond 48 hours.</div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How Many Sets (i.e. how much volume)?
If you are doing HST properly you won't be able to just increase your volume at will - you should already be using as much volume as you can reasonably handle and still feel healthy (no injuries etc).
So, should you increase, maintain or decrease "volume" as the cycle progresses? Here is how you decide:
Increase volume if:
You are never sore
You are never tired
You are not growing
Maintain volume if:
You are slightly sore most of the time
You are tired enough to sleep well, but not so tired you lose motivation to train.
You are noticeably “fuller”
Decrease volume if:
You are experiencing over-use pain, and strain symptoms in joints and/or muscles.
You are tired and irritable all the time, yet don’t sleep well.
Strength levels are significantly decreasing.
Basically, perform as many sets as you can do without having to reduce the Load from set to set and without having to reduce the frequency beyond 48 hours.</div>
<div>
(Ruthenian @ Jan. 16 2007,23:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey, good to see another 40-something from Oregon!
Like Franko says, you hate to keep hearing it, but you just need to see what works for you. I tend to think that Peak Power's comments on total workload are on target. Assuming that you are using reasonably heavy weights, you probably won't go wrong as long as your workload (wt x sets) is progressing (or at least constant). How you do it -- whether increasing sets, clustering, linear progressions, or whatever -- is up to you.
I'm curious, Oregonian, it sounds like you may find your workload going down over the cycle -- have you figured this out?</div>
Yeah, the total workload if measured by # of reps goes down but the intensity goes up, rest time typically goes down a bit (except for the big 3 - squats followed by leg presses followed by deadlifts). I time myself between every set as a force of habit for years now. I just feel the lower reps is compensated for by the heavier weights based on how I feel after I am done working out. Maybe I'm missing something by not trying multiple sets............not sure. Just know my progress with size gains (measured) and weight moved (who says HST isn't a strength building program.!>!>!) while energy levels are high all the time. Plus the ticky-tack injuries are not happening at all anymore like they used to.
(Ruthenian @ Jan. 16 2007,23:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey, good to see another 40-something from Oregon!
Like Franko says, you hate to keep hearing it, but you just need to see what works for you. I tend to think that Peak Power's comments on total workload are on target. Assuming that you are using reasonably heavy weights, you probably won't go wrong as long as your workload (wt x sets) is progressing (or at least constant). How you do it -- whether increasing sets, clustering, linear progressions, or whatever -- is up to you.
I'm curious, Oregonian, it sounds like you may find your workload going down over the cycle -- have you figured this out?</div>
Yeah, the total workload if measured by # of reps goes down but the intensity goes up, rest time typically goes down a bit (except for the big 3 - squats followed by leg presses followed by deadlifts). I time myself between every set as a force of habit for years now. I just feel the lower reps is compensated for by the heavier weights based on how I feel after I am done working out. Maybe I'm missing something by not trying multiple sets............not sure. Just know my progress with size gains (measured) and weight moved (who says HST isn't a strength building program.!>!>!) while energy levels are high all the time. Plus the ticky-tack injuries are not happening at all anymore like they used to.
Hey, if it works for you that is all you need. I tend to think of increasing workloads as a “safe harbor” for effectiveness, but that doesn’t mean other approaches won’t work. Merely increasing load definitely can provide strength benefits (thus the increases in strength that accompany HST) and it is one of the key HST principles, so there is likely going to be some hypertrophy, too. In fact, mikeynov’s Dual Factor HST variant could conceivably lead to less workload at the end, but I am trying it during a cutting cycle (maintenance of strength being a key issue).
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
<div>
(s2b33 @ Jan. 18 2007,22:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">on an unrelated note, Joe.Muscle, who is the guy in your picture? He has good back definition</div>
I have no idea...it was just a cool avatar...however I am thinking of putting my own pic up there?
(s2b33 @ Jan. 18 2007,22:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">on an unrelated note, Joe.Muscle, who is the guy in your picture? He has good back definition</div>
I have no idea...it was just a cool avatar...however I am thinking of putting my own pic up there?
<div>
(Ruthenian @ Jan. 19 2007,11:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey, if it works for you that is all you need. I tend to think of increasing workloads as a “safe harbor” for effectiveness, but that doesn’t mean other approaches won’t work. Merely increasing load definitely can provide strength benefits (thus the increases in strength that accompany HST) and it is one of the key HST principles, so there is likely going to be some hypertrophy, too. In fact, mikeynov’s Dual Factor HST variant could conceivably lead to less workload at the end, but I am trying it during a cutting cycle (maintenance of strength being a key issue).</div>
Thanks for the link to mikeynov's thread - next cycle (I'm in SD right now) I'll try 2 sets of the 5 rep cycle (probably have to cut a couple of exercises) and see how it works. I probably do too many exercises overall (15 now!) that dropping a couple might help in the long run anyway. My overall concern was keeping my gym time to about an hour.
(Ruthenian @ Jan. 19 2007,11:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey, if it works for you that is all you need. I tend to think of increasing workloads as a “safe harbor” for effectiveness, but that doesn’t mean other approaches won’t work. Merely increasing load definitely can provide strength benefits (thus the increases in strength that accompany HST) and it is one of the key HST principles, so there is likely going to be some hypertrophy, too. In fact, mikeynov’s Dual Factor HST variant could conceivably lead to less workload at the end, but I am trying it during a cutting cycle (maintenance of strength being a key issue).</div>
Thanks for the link to mikeynov's thread - next cycle (I'm in SD right now) I'll try 2 sets of the 5 rep cycle (probably have to cut a couple of exercises) and see how it works. I probably do too many exercises overall (15 now!) that dropping a couple might help in the long run anyway. My overall concern was keeping my gym time to about an hour.
Hint that works good for me:
Think of volume in terms of work per week instead of sets per workout and compare the weeks in your cycle. All you really need to do to stimulate growth is to increase total work. In a typical program, 2 sets of 5 reps at max weight is 10% to 20% more work output than 1 set of 15 reps at max weight. 3 sets of 5 is substantially more than 1 set of 15 and probably uses up energy that would be better expended in recovery than in more exhaustion which, in turn, requires more recovery. Each workout and each rep change needs to be geometrically greater in work output than the previous one to induce growth without stagnation...it does not have to be exponentially greater.
At the bottom of my workout schedule for each cycle, I total the amount of work I put out for the week and make sure I have a nice progression going on. I don't care if it is 1 set, 3 sets or 1.5 sets that forces me to keep in incline in my work output schedule. I just do what I need to to keep it going up. That allows me to factor in frequency when planning my HST cycles. Of course you can also factor in tempo (and even rest time as a negative factor at any time over X seconds if you want to be real anal about it.)
Think of volume in terms of work per week instead of sets per workout and compare the weeks in your cycle. All you really need to do to stimulate growth is to increase total work. In a typical program, 2 sets of 5 reps at max weight is 10% to 20% more work output than 1 set of 15 reps at max weight. 3 sets of 5 is substantially more than 1 set of 15 and probably uses up energy that would be better expended in recovery than in more exhaustion which, in turn, requires more recovery. Each workout and each rep change needs to be geometrically greater in work output than the previous one to induce growth without stagnation...it does not have to be exponentially greater.
At the bottom of my workout schedule for each cycle, I total the amount of work I put out for the week and make sure I have a nice progression going on. I don't care if it is 1 set, 3 sets or 1.5 sets that forces me to keep in incline in my work output schedule. I just do what I need to to keep it going up. That allows me to factor in frequency when planning my HST cycles. Of course you can also factor in tempo (and even rest time as a negative factor at any time over X seconds if you want to be real anal about it.)