Optimal Cutting/Bulking PSMF/IF

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by nkl, May 29, 2008.

  1. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ May 30 2008,12:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What food is pure protein out there besides eggwhite and whey? Can you imagine 24 hours on that?</div>
    When I did PSMF, all I ate was cans of tuna, eggwhites and various types of frozen fish that I found at the store. Check the nutrional facts on the back of some of them, there are several you can find that will say 0 carbs and 0 fat, though I am sure there are negligible amounts of both in them still. The biggest problem is how bland that kind of diet is... Spices, hot sauce, etc helps but it gets real old after a week or two.

    To be honest, sometimes I cheated and stir fried some veggies in &quot;fat free&quot; cooking spray with chopped up bits of chicken and a little soy sauce. That ended up having some carbs and fats in it, but I think the amounts weren't too bad. You have to do what you have to do in order to stay sane.

    Another thing that helps is making a lot of calorie free jello to consume when you really, really need some flavor. The jello also helps blunt hunger.
     
  2. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (nkl @ May 29 2008,1:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Some of us have tried doing IF a while but are concerned with loosing mass during fasting (even if evidence says that no loss occurs). There have been proposed that supplementing protein during the 'fast' would benefit PS (the more the better). And, what of doing this modified IF for bulking? And, what of doing a cutting/bulking scheme every other day? You are invited to the party. What are your thoughts on this (studies, etc)?</div>
    FWIW, I found that trying to bulk with IF didn't result in a whole huge difference compared to bulking otherwise. A couple years back I had gotten up to 225, this time I reached 230 lbs and I was leaner than when I hit 225 those two years ago. I only did IF for part of this bulk, I don't remember when exactly I moved to an IF setup... it's probably in my log somewhere. Anyway, was it much different than a normal bulk? I still got fat in the end. Maybe it was less fat than I would have gained otherwise, but I'm not sure.

    Further, it is difficult to keep it up when you have a higher maintenance than most people. I'm not sure the trouble of consuming 4000+ calories within an 8 hour window is worth the possibility of less fat gain.

    One side effect which might just be some wackiness with myself, or perhaps some spontaneous thing, is that IF seemed to improve my lipid profile quite a bit even while eating &quot;dirty&quot; foods that are supposedly bad for your cholesterol. My blood pressure also improved quite a bit. Considering that I ended up heavier than ever after all this and I haven't changed what I eat, simply when I eat, I don't know what else to attribute this to.

    I do still feel that cutting with IF has been my most successful cut to date. I did that last year and had great results, especially with regards to maintaining strength while losing a significant amount of bodyweight.
     
  3. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I did a search with Nutritiondata.com for protein only - most fish are 1g fat to 100g servings. Orange roughy is pure protein with no fat as are - get this - frog legs!
    All the other meats have a bit of fat.
     
  4. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Tot:

    What do you think of the proposed 24/24 set up?

    On your bulk, how much weight did you gain per week? How much above maintenance were you eating?
     
  5. nkl

    nkl Member

    Just a thought. Fat is not forbidden on PSMF days. The less fat you eat, the more you will burn. It is only that. Put a juicy steak on the grill if you feel like it. It is not a sin. Just keep the calories in check. [​IMG]
     
  6. nkl

    nkl Member

    There is some reason behind the layout of the 24/24 PSMF plan.

    The 24 hour cycling begin after your workout (lets say you work out at noon, to make it simple). You end your previous 24 h PSMF with a protein rich meal, supposedly a protein shake as it is easily digested, before you begin your lifting. This will prevent excessive protein breakdown. You might think you need some carbs to manage, but this will disturb the excercise metabolism and thus the adrenogenic hormones will be blunted. Besides you will have plenty of glucose left in your muscles left from the previous carb load.

    Directly after your workout you start your 24 hour bulk. This means plenty of protein and carbs (insulin sensitivity is elevated after exercise for a couple of hours), but limited fat. After dinner you cut out the faster carbs (deposits have been refilled and insulin sensitivity returns to normal). The insulin from the protein/carbs combo will elevate leptin levels and this will restore your BMR back to normal (caloric deprivation and excercise will bring it down). Before you hit the sack you may ingest some slower protein source for PS to work with during the productive night hours.

    The morning after, insulin levels are down to fasting levels and hepatic glucogen is released in a controlled manner with the help of glucagon and GH makes your fat mobilized for use as fuel. At this time muscle wasting has not begun. You begin your day with a protein source and a good fat source. You can have this for lunch as well. Why fat? Well, you need fat, especially the anti-inflammatory omega-3 kind (you get plenty pro-inflammatory omega-6 from egg, meat, and dairy). The fat have good properties for growth (needed for cell membranes, steroid and prostaglandin production, and boosting caloric levels), besides it keeps the insulin levels unaffected. Doing this, the fat will be stored equally in muscle deposits and adipose tissue. Also, the fat will blunt hunger.

    At some time during the day or evening the hepatic glucogen stores will begin to run dry and gluconeogenesis will become the next step for keeping the blood glucose levels steady. Here is where the PSMF come into play to preserve your precious body protein.

    After lunch hour you begin your 24 h PSMF, i.e., you will eat protein and veggies throughout the rest of the day (you can eat some tasty protein sources with some fat - the fat won't hurt you that bad), supplemented with multivitamin/mineral and fish oil plus some veggies (as protein is basic and veggies are acidic - they cancel each other out somewhat) The next day you just keep eating protein and vegetables until your next workout.

    The PSMF will give you something to eat and keep your PS machine fueled. All the body's machinery will run on primarily fat from your own fat deposits and some dietary protein that is used to feed the GNG production (actually the amino acids alanine and glutamine). Of course the veggies will provide some small amounts of glucose also. It is important to eat extra protein as some of the protein is diverted towards GNG and not PS. And, it doesn't have to be a total drag to do PSMF. Use your imagination to spice the meals up. Blend great tasting shakes. Make it possible to stick to the lifestyle.  
    <div>
    (beingisbeing @ May 30 2008,5:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Accord to Lyle again, 15gr carbs can really take the edge off of the muscle wasting effects of ketosis, and about 50gr will attenuate it as much as possible.</div>This diet will not become so ketogenic, i.e., produce a lot of ketone bodies from incomplete breakdown of FFA in the liver, because of the short time span the liver stores of glucogen are depleted. Additionally, ketones are protein-sparing, not protein-wasting, as these replaces some of the glucose for fuel produced from proteins and other substances. Ketones are thus not bad at all. But in very lean persons, the production of ketones is too low to be protein-sparing. Lyle says in UD2.0 that it is a tangential effect. It doesn't really matter in the whole picture. I've never read that Lyle said it was muscle-wasting.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">... Same for the veggie soup idea, but that will cut you down very fast and has to be temporary due to no fat. It came from a crash diet for fat people undergoing heart surgery.</div>The lack of protein in the veggie soup diet is like doing a fast, only you get some healthy nutrients. Call it a veggie soup fast (some call a complete fast a water fast, and a diet only eating fruits a fruit fast - but that is a little off target).
     
  7. nkl

    nkl Member

    If you are lacking studies ( [​IMG] ) to further confirm the directions on protein intake on the 24/24 PSMF, you may read up on The Protein Myths that Bryan wrote in the Articles section on the main HST/HSN website.
     
  8. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There is some reason behind the layout of the 24/24 PSMF plan.

    The 24 hour cycling begin after your workout (lets say you work out at noon, to make it simple). You end your previous 24 h PSMF with a protein rich meal, supposedly a protein shake as it is easily............ \ ............. it doesn't have to be a total drag to do PSMF. Use your imagination to spice the meals up. Blend great tasting shakes. Make it possible to stick to the lifestyle. </div>
    This is a keeper. I'm putting it in my diet folder; good job on your research.
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">... Same for the veggie soup idea,</div> At that point I was referring to using protein along with it. You'd still have to cut it short due to no fats. I don't consider a diet with eating in it to be a fast. Fasting is doing without in a big way, but that's just semantics I guess.
     
  9. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    <div>
    (nkl @ May 31 2008,7:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You end your previous 24 h PSMF with a protein rich meal, supposedly a protein shake as it is easily digested, before you begin your lifting. This will prevent excessive protein breakdown. You might think you need some carbs to manage, but this will disturb the excercise metabolism and thus the adrenogenic hormones will be blunted. Besides you will have plenty of glucose left in your muscles left from the previous carb load.</div>
    Can you elaborate on this a little further? Wouldn't carbs and protein during the workout have an increased anabolic effect?

    As far as ketosis, I may be conflating a few things. I asked Lyle vis-a-vis email once, that if ketosis is protein sparing, why shouldn't we make a point of going into ketosis on the UD2.0. He replied that it is only protein sparing when dietary protein is insufficient. So I inferred from this, that ketosis on our protein intakes, the intakes of weight lifters, is undesirable, or at least pretty useless.

    &quot;In studies where protein intake is too low, ketosis may also be protein sparing. For the most part, if protein intake is adequate to begin with, I haven't seen any convincing data that ketosis has much of an additional benefit.&quot;

    L M UD2.0 pg 49, paragraph 4

    So maybe its not that ketosis is muscle wasting, but that its useless given the amount of protein we're going to be ingesting?

    OTOH, I was also conflating my memory of this passage with the above;

    &quot;However, there is an alternate way to limit the use of body protein when carbohydrates are being severely restricted. As few as 15 grams of carbohydrates per day has been shown to limit nitrogen loss and 50 grams of carbohydrate per day severely limits the need for the body to use amino acids for gluoconeogenesis. Not only will it maintain blood glucose and insulin at a slightly higher level (thus inhibiting cortisol release), it directly provides glucose for the brain, limiting the need to break down protein in the first place.

    Ketosis (if desired) will generally still develop under those conditions. So although the physiological requirement for dietary carbohydrates is zero, we might set a practical minimum (in terms of preventing excessive body protein loss) at 50 grams per day. I realize that most ketogenic diet authors use 30 grams/day as a starting point but, frankly, I have no idea where that value came from.&quot;

    From Here


    So its not really ketosis thats the issue, because this will/won't develop at different points of carb intake for different people. Its that a solid 50grams seems to have much protein sparing effect, and so I see no point in going below that. We can always squeeze calories elsewhere (i.e., fats).

    I guess I brought this up, because not knowing much about PSMF, I took it to mean only protein and completely unavoidable carbs/fats.

    But so far I'm really liking this layout and think I'm going to start on Monday. I just have to ruminate about calorie levels a bit.


    I estimate my maintenance at ~2800. So for a 'bulk,' do you think 3300 hundred calories on lifting days, and ~1500 on off days coupled with low intensity cardio would be a good plan fellas?
     
  10. nkl

    nkl Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I estimate my maintenance at ~2800. So for a 'bulk,' do you think 3300 hundred calories on lifting days, and ~1500 on off days coupled with low intensity cardio would be a good plan fellas?</div>Might be. Are you counting how much you may burn during your workout? The calories has to exceed your expenditure on workout days.
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, there is an alternate way to limit the use of body protein when carbohydrates are being severely restricted. As few as 15 grams of carbohydrates per day has been shown to limit nitrogen loss and 50 grams of carbohydrate per day severely limits the need for the body to use amino acids for gluoconeogenesis. Not only will it maintain blood glucose and insulin at a slightly higher level (thus inhibiting cortisol release), it directly provides glucose for the brain, limiting the need to break down protein in the first place.</div>That is also why adding dietary protein can compensate for gluconeogenesis, instead of carbs. This way, you avoid disturbing your insulin levels much during the PSMF. But, since vegetables are included, the carbs in these will probably amount to some 15g or more carbs per day. If 100-150 grams of carbohydrates are required as fuel for the brain, CNS, blood cells and kidneys, whatever difference from the carbs you ingest, you add to your protein intake. I forgot to mention that lactate is also a source for gluconeogenesis (sort of neo).
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but that's just semantics I guess.</div>My point, exactly. [​IMG]

    I'm glad that you find my proposal a good one. I will also try it out over the summer (whenever I can, depending on the circumstances). Summer, northern hemisphere, that is (international community).
     
  11. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    You must not be talking about much in the way of veggies, at 15g CHO. How much is a half-plate or a goodly serving of mixed veggies anyway, 100g? And there's the temptation to eat them several times a day too.

    I'm embarking on a 4-day routine. (aka O&amp;G) Unless I do day 1 and 2 one day, 3 and 4 on the third day I wouldn't be able to do this diet right away. I'll have to see how hard it is (the routine).
     
  12. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    thanks for the reply nkl

    did you see the first question in my post, about the carbs? Just curious because my plan was to come out of the PSMF by taking a shake to the gym (50 gr whey 150 grams glucose polymers/a little fructose (aka ultra fuel) ), and sip this slowly through the work out, diluting it as I go.

    It seems however, you feel the carbs should be avoided until the workout is over...?

    About maintenance. I'm 178lbs, lean mass I assume (this is another can of worms) at 155. I have calculated about 2700 from various methods for my level of activity (which includes the gym 6 days a week).

    The weird thing is, I started out so fat (at ~215) and was able to lose a ton of weight and build some muscle without really counting calories. So I'm sure I've lost weight while eating MORE than 2700. So either that was a function of my lard and the fact that I hadn't lifted in years, or I'm wayyyy under estimating the maintenance.
     
  13. nkl

    nkl Member

    Quad, vegetables are very low on the carbs, 2-6 grams per 100 gram serving size. Nutritiondata.com will give you figures. Tomatoes, cucumbers, onions, lettuce, spinach, paprika, cabbage, rutabagas, etc. are good sources for vitamins and other healthy nutrients during the low calorie days. They also provide bulk. You might chow down 50 grams of carbs in a day if you can manage, but that might be 1000 grams  (2.2 lbs) of veggies. When you add fruity stuff in, like bananas, apples, pears, pineapples, citrus fruits, etc., these will provide more carbs. These you may eat a lot of on your high calorie days.

    Being, the reason I do not think carbs are a good source during workout is purely based on the fact that carbs via insulin blunts the adrenogenic hormones, GH, and shuts fat burning down. Exercise Endocrinology puts it like this: &quot;Stimulation of insulin sectretion by carbohydrate supplementation before or during exercise elicits insulin actions that interfere with the adaptive pattern of fuel use during exercise. ... Reactive hypoglycemia develops during 30 minutes of exercise&quot; The carbs will make your responses more sluggish and your edge might be dulled. Carbs are for the feast after a great workout.

    If you have had plenty of carbs on the high calorie day, your muscle glycogen would be nearly full. You have all the juice you may need. Exercise Endocrinology explains: &quot; Muscle glucogen supplies about 60% to 75% of the energy at intermediate to high exercise intensities, and the rate of its depletion is unaffected by glucose supplementation as insulin-insensitive type IIX fibers are significantly involved.&quot; After workout, the stores are a little less full and insulin sensitivity are elevated. When ingesting carbs after, the glucose will refill muscle glycogen stores, and less will be diverted to adipose tissue. Before workout, make sure you get protein, so it will be available for PS and prevent protein degradation though.

    To further spice my argument for not doing carbs before workout, I quote from Ori Hofmekler's Max Muscle, Min Fat:   <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">An anabolic event occurs in two critical stages. The first stage is growth stimulation, and the second is growth activation. ...
    [The first stage] To maximize growth, you must activate the hormones that stimulate growth. This hormonal stimulation is actually the switch that turns on the anabolic process, and the switch gets flipped whenever you fast or undereat. Fasting or undereating sends a starvationlike signal that the body perceives as catabolic. To compensate for the missing food and to protect itself from metabolic breakdown, the body does whatever it can to boost its anabolic activities. It significantly increases protein assimilation to ensure maximum protein utilization from minimal food. At the cellular level, a most powerful cellular factor is activated during fasting or undereating. This cellular factor is called cyclic AMP (cAMP). Among its numerous jobs, cAMP activates anabolic-stimulating hormones ... cAMP and its related enzyme protein kinase A induce steroid-stimulating hormone release from the pituitary gland. These peptide-stimulating hormones signal the gonads and adrenal glands to synthesize steroid hormones. ... cAMP catalyzes an enzyme that increases available cholesterol concentration, the substrate to steroid hormone synthesis. ... Growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH), which stimulates GH secretion, is a peptide-stimulating hormone. Its synthesis is stimulated by cellular factor cAMP, and its secretion increases when the GH plasma level drops. ... Additionally, recent research shows a dramatic increase in insulinlike growth factor 1 (IGF-1) receptors in muscle cell membranes during fasting or undereating. ... When activated, cAMP catalyzes a chain of cellular events that activate enzymes responsible for protein synthesis and energy production. ... Cyclic AMP is activated by the stress and fat-burning hormones adrenaline and glucagon. Once activated, adrenal receptors stimulate the enzyme adenylate cyclase to synthesize cAMP  from the energy molecule ATP. ... The impact of cAMP clearly depends on adrenal actions. Beacuse adrenal actions are immediate and short, so are cAMP. However, physiologic conditions such as fasting and exercise prolong adrenal actions and their related cAMP impact. ... Eating full meals inhibits cAMP.
    ...
    [The second stage] To take advantage of growth potential, you must activate another cellular factor that can finalize the growth impact and effectively facilitate muscle gain. When you eat a full meal after fasting or exercising, you activate an inner mechanism that helps your body recuperate from induced stress. Your body replenishes empty energy reserves and nourishes starving tissues with lost nutrients. It also builds and repairs damaged tissue and utilizes new cell membranes. All these actions are regulated by a cellular factor called cyclic GMP (cGMP). cGMP is insulin dependend and is therefore instantly activated when you consume carbohydrates. cGMP, which is activated when blood sugar level rises, appears to reverse the cellular actions of cAMP. However, cGMP completes and enhances the initial stimulating actions of cAMP. Overall, this cellular factor, with its nourishing effects, finalizes steroid hormon actions, growth hormone, and insulinlike growth factor 1, thereby establishing a maximum anabolic state. ... The second stage of the anabolic cycle's effect is delayed but can last for days.  ... Postexercise carb consumption is recommended for maximizing IGF-1 anabolic actions.</div>
    The most potent adrenal action you will get during the workout. If you eat carbs before or during exercise, you will not get full adrenal pump, hence less cAMP activation = less growth stimulation. But postexercise carbs = growth activation!
     
  14. nipponbiki

    nipponbiki New Member

    Quad,

    NKL is basically right about vegetables being very low in actual carbs, but simply using the blanket term vegetable and therefore eating anything classified as such will get you into trouble.

    Some vegetables are moderate to high in carbs---think potatoes, corn, carrots, eggplant, pumpkin, peas, and so on.

    Absolutely stay away from those. And don't forget tomatoes are actually fruit.

    If you stick with raw, leafy type and stalk type vegetables, you would have to eat 5 pounds worth a day before carbs became an issue.

    An easy way to think about this without having to research everything would be to ask yourself if it is is mushy or becomes at least somewhat mushy after boiling. If so, don't eat it. Actually, the less mushy it is, the more you can at least mix some of it with the tasteless raw, leafy stuff.
     
  15. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Nippon: you have a succint way of putting it that makes it easy, if not a bit queasy...

    NKL: I'd missed the part about working out at the very END of the fast, so it's the workout that determines the break. I (and possible others) missed it because of having it drilled into my head to carb up for a workout because the body prefers carbs for fuel and you will stagnate, shrivel up and die if you don't eat carbs for a workout and be cursed to Hell forever...so it didn't compute.
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fasting or undereating sends a starvationlike signal that the body perceives as catabolic. To compensate for the missing food and to protect itself from metabolic breakdown, the body does whatever it can to boost its anabolic activities. It significantly increases protein assimilation to ensure maximum protein utilization from minimal food. At the cellular level, a most powerful cellular factor is activated during fasting or undereating. This cellular factor is called cyclic AMP (cAMP). Among its numerous jobs, cAMP activates anabolic-stimulating hormones ... </div> Okay, okay, I get it...but for a minnit there I thought he wasn't sure. The body surely &quot;knows&quot; when it's catabolic. But evidently there is some grey area there that isn't damaging at first? I would assume that this ends at some point where the body actually DOES become catabolic.
     
  16. nkl

    nkl Member

    Ori's diet is based on almost complete fasting, but the PSFM is supposed to prevent protein degradation. In fact, with the higher protein recommendation in my scheme you may actually build some muscle during the PSMF. The signals of catabolism during the PSMF would be of energy deprivation (fat and carbs). Ori would probably be disappointed with the PSMF because of the protein supplementation (no cyclic deprivation - he's very fond of the cyclic thing). This may make the PS sluggish with the constant protein availability, but as long as we do not supplement too often PS should rebound to high performance after each feeding (minimum 2.5 hour apart).

    As for carbs before workout, the carb loading during the high calorie day will provide all the carbs your muscle need for the upcoming workout. Muscle glucogen stores lasts 3-4 days. So, yes, the workout is the switch between the 24 hour PSMF (growth stimulation) and the 24 hour bulk (growth activation).  [​IMG]

    Edit: Catabolism is the retrieval of fuel and structure molecules needed elsewhere. If there is an abundance of protein, your own body protein will not be used. I think you would willingly let fat be catabolized from adipose tissue to be used elsewhere (e.g., for fuel). Glycogen is also catabolized in the liver and released into the blood as glucose to meet a demand elsewhere. If glucogen is scarce, the gluconeogenesis production machinery looks elsewhere for spare parts to throw into the mix. As you supplement protein, yet again your own body protein is spared.
     
  17. nkl

    nkl Member

    I have been reading up on the concept of protein cycling, as I figured the body would adapt to a high intake of proteins. Not only that, but a chronic high intake of protein might tax the system with high levels of protein-derived waste products, perhaps even toxic... So, I did find some very interesting information that might be of value (and some information that I rediscovered, but now in a whole different light).

    A summary from Lyle McDonald on protein cycling, backed up on this site, originally from Meso-RX site:
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There are a number of mechanisms by which the body can adapt to increasing and decreasing protein intakes. Arguably the most important is rates of oxidation, which can increase or decrease rapidly to compensate for increasing and decreasing protein intakes. In addition, rates of protein synthesis and breakdown can be altered, with both typically decreasing with lowered protein intakes, and increasing with raised protein intakes. Finally, the amount of urea produced, which is related to AA oxidation, may be altered.

    Although comprehensive data is lacking, it appears that the major adaptations to altered protein intakes take place fairly rapidly, within a number of days. In rats, this may be 3-7 days, in humans 9-12 days or slightly longer.

    While more research is needed, it appears the the first proteins lost during protein deprivation are liver and other organ proteins. By the same token, during protein refeeding (or simply high protein feeding) it appears that liver proteins are the first to be synthesized.

    With regards to the concept of protein cycling, while the general idea is somewhat logical, in that decreasing protein intake can cause a transient decrease in oxidation and turnover, there is little indication that there will be a net gain in body protein when protein intake is increased again. In the same way that liver proteins are the first lost, they will likely be the first regained. And by the time liver proteins have been rebuilt, rates of oxidation and turnover will have returned to normal, leaving the individual with no net gains.
    </div> Thus protein cycling might not be the holy grail for size gains, but perhaps a way to detox and let the body have some time off from the chronic high intake of protein.

    Another interesting thing that I found, coupled to the essence of this thread, is extended periods of bulking followed by extended periods of dieting. By extended I mean 2 weeks of each. The logic behind this is explained by the inventor of the idea, Torbjorn Akerfeldt. He calls his approach Anabolic Burst Cycling of Diet and Exercise (ABCDE) (Link to 4-part article). I let himself explain: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm not talking about going on a &quot;bulking diet&quot; where you overeat for an entire season and then take 12 weeks to cut up--that doesn't work. I'm not talking about one of these ridiculous 10,000-calorie-a-day diets, either. The secret to my system is acute or &quot;whiplash&quot; calorie cycling. You overfeed the body for only two weeks and then diet for two weeks. ... The two-week calorie cycles are based on scientific evidence and empirical data.

    In one study by Forbes, et al., entitled the &quot;Hormonal Response to Overfeeding,&quot; it was demonstrated that when test subjects started with a maintenance-calorie-intake diet and then went on a nutrition program that provided 1,200 to 1,600 extra calories a day, their blood tests showed a progressive increase in IGF-1, testosterone, and insulin [which doubled in 14 days!], all in concert with an increase in lean body mass. However, the hormone levels peaked and began to decline on day 14 of the high-calorie diet! This is a very important observation. By day 21, the test subjects in this study gained 3-6 lbs of lean body mass and gained a few pounds of bodyfat as well. However, these test subjects did not perform any resistance exercise, and the excess food provided only six percent of energy from protein, and the test subjects were women--we don't know yet, but the testosterone boost could be even greater in men, leading to more muscle accumulation. ...

    In a 12-day study conducted by Jebb, et al., reported very recently in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition,7 entitled &quot;Changes in Macronutrient Balance During Over- and Underfeeding Assessed by 12-Day Continuous Whole-Body Calorimetry,&quot; it was shown that when male test subjects went from a maintenance-calorie-intake diet to an overfeeding diet [approximately 3,600 total calories a day], within 12 days, they gained 4.38 lbs of lean mass and put on just 2 lbs of fat. The same study showed that when test subjects went on a pretty drastic [around 1,000 calories a day] diet for 12 days, they lost, on average, 4.6 lbs of bodyfat and only 2.4 lbs of lean mass. As you can see, during this short overfeeding period, the amount of lean mass to fat gained was in a ratio greater than 2:1, and in the underfeeding phase, the amount of fat versus muscle lost was 2:1.

    Hypothetically, if you were to follow a two-week overfeeding phase with a two-week diet, you would actually gain muscle and lose fat, even if you didn't exercise. Needless to say, if you train with weights and follow a more precise nutrition program, much less use supplements that can enhance the anabolic and anti-catabolic effects of each phase of this diet, you can continue to gain muscle, without getting fat!
    ...
    The macronutrient profile of the diet is not nearly as important as the total-energy intake, but one could logically surmise that consuming a higher protein diet during the bulking phase may stimulate anabolic drive and produce even greater nitrogen retention. In the studies by Forbes and Jebb that I've already mentioned, I believe the results would have been more substantial if the subjects had been consuming more protein. The ratio of macronutrients during the anabolic phase is actually not far from the ordinary, habitual diet most people eat and is actually in concert with Dr. Erasmus' recommendations of 20% protein, 50% carbohydrates, and 30% fat. However, an even higher protein, lower carbohydrate bulking diet may also be effective, but the health aspects concern me a bit here. I have numerous theories, which I'm developing, on how to set up &quot;microcycles,&quot; where you consume different macronutrient profiles on different days of the two-week high-calorie and low-calorie phases. But rather than get into all those intricacies at this point, I will simply emphasize that it is very likely a substantial effect will be realized by consuming high quantities of food rich with quality protein [at least one gram per pound of bodyweight per day], carbohydrates, and unsaturated fats.
    ...
    What about the low-calorie phase? ... First of all, let's backtrack a bit and go over why it's so important to have a low-calorie/dieting phase in this program. This dieting phase actually serves two very important purposes. First, we want to strip off what fat will be gained during the two-week bulking phase. This is very important, as bodybuilders want to gain muscle, not fat. A second very important aspect of the dieting phase of this program is to &quot;reprime&quot; your body's enzymes and anabolic hormones. As I've already discussed, testosterone, insulin, and IGF-1 levels start to decline after about two weeks of overfeeding. In order to boost these levels again, you've got to trick the body into thinking it's necessary to store more calories as muscle tissue. ... As you know, fat loss is all but impossible in the presence of elevated insulin levels—a high-carbohydrate diet will severely inhibit fat oxidation. Also, if you followed a high-carbohydrate diet during the low-calorie phase, the accompanying increase in fat oxidation would make you put on a lot of fat during the next bulking phase.
    Nevertheless, carbohydrates also have some very important properties during a hypocaloric diet, such as keeping GH and IGF-1 primed. Therefore, it's almost necessary to perform &quot;microcycles&quot; for optimal results.
    ...
    How many calories should somebody eat on the bulking phase and cutting program? ... Take your bodyweight times 12 [to approximate maintenance-calorie intake for an individual who's not extremely active] and add 1,500 calories to this number. ... On the low-calorie phase, I would recommend consuming a number of calories equal to your bodyweight times eight. ... If a bodybuilder is following this recommendation and not gaining weight during the bulking phase, I would recommend increasing calorie intake by 500 calories a day, for a week, and if a substantial weight gain is not realized, I would take it up another 500 calories the next week. If you're working out hard, you should be gaining three pounds a week on the bulking phase.
    Likewise, if someone is not losing bodyweight on the low-calorie phase, I would recommend decreasing calorie intake by 300 calories a day, per week.

    [Selected references]
    G.B. Forbes, et al., &quot;Hormonal Response to Overfeeding,&quot; Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 49.4 (1989) : 608-611.
    Jebb, et al., &quot;Changes in Macronutrient Balance During Over- and Underfeeding Assessed by 12-Day Continuous Whole-Body Calorimetry,&quot; Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 64 (1996) : 259-266.

    [For protein cycling info read this link]
    </div>
    Ok, so we could extend the 24 hour bulk to 2 weeks and the 24 hour PSMF to 2 weeks to maximize growth and fat loss. We have some options. Going beyond this time scale is not good. Hyperplasia of adipose tissue, insulin resistance, and other evils manifest themselves during the third week of overeating - so overeat 2 weeks tops. Dieting by PSMF is also severly hindered by leptin decrease, causing metabolic slowdown and lack of glucogen stores decreases performance to do heavy work. Lyle McDonald recommends 2 weeks on the PSMF  for lean individuals.

    Would this be the optimal combination of bulking and cutting? Perhaps? Some would rather walk the middle way and do it one week at a time. Experiment and find your tolerances. 8h/16h or 24h/24h or 1w/1w or 2w/2w?
     
  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Two weeks of mostly protein will probably kill your liver. If not soon, then later. Better to stay with the 24.
     
  19. nkl

    nkl Member

    A note on Thyroid function during undereating (Link): <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">David Sarne, MD
    Starvation has a profound effect on thyroid function, causing a decrease in serum T3 concentration and a reciprocal increase in rT3 level. These changes are due to a selective inhibition of the 5'-monodeiodination of iodothyronines by peripheral tissues. Reduction in carbohydrate intake rather than total calorie deprivation appears to be the determinant factor. These alterations in thyroid function are believed to reduce the catabolic activity of the organism and thus to conserve energy in the face of decreased calorie intake. Chronic malnutrition is accompanied by similar changes. Overfeeding has opposite although transient effects.</div>
    A fast lasting several days in a row will affect thyroid function very much (slowing basal metabolism). See attached image. I suggest doing some carb and fat cycling whitin the PSMF if you do it longer than 24-48 hours (to be on the safe side). During carb-feeding this may be a good time to lower the protein intake some and substitute these calories with carbs. Carbs will prevent excessive protein breakdown during the protein cycling. What this study doesn't show is what would have happened if no complete fasting were performed, but a PSMF instead. Would T3 levels drop or stay up?
     
  20. nkl

    nkl Member

    Are high protein diet harmful for your liver? Some say (Link): <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Too much daily protein may cause hepatic encephalopathy (mental confusion). This occurs when the amount of dietary protein is greater than the liver's ability to use the protein. This causes a build up of toxins that can interfere with brain function. Protein is restricted in patients with clinical evidence of encephalopathy. </div> while study says: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Rom J Gastroenterol. 2005 Sep;14(3):231-8. Links
    Improvement of hepatic encephalopathy using a modified high-calorie high-protein diet.Gheorghe L, Iacob R, V&amp;#259;dan R, Iacob S, Gheorghe C.
    Department of Hepatology, Center of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, Fundeni Clinical Institute, 72437 Bucharest, Romania. [email protected]

    BACKGROUND AND AIM: Protein-calorie malnutrition (PCM) occurs in 20-60% of patients with hepatic cirrhosis and is associated with the development of life-threatening complications. We evaluated the effect of a modified, casein-vegetable-based, high-protein high-calorie (HPHC) diet on the outcome of cirrhotic patients with hepatic encephalopathy (HE). METHODS: One hundred and fifty three consecutive cirrhotic patients with overt HE were included in this study. An HPHC diet based on better-tolerated vegetable and milk-derived proteins was initiated in order to ensure the adequate protein-energy requirements of 30 kcal/kg/day and 1.2g proteins/kg/day. Serial (daily) assessments were done, including mental status, asterixis, a conventional Number Connection Test (NCT), bowel movements and blood ammonia level. The assessment of the mental status was performed using the West Haven scale. Favorable evolution or response to HPHC diet was defined as an improvement in HE stage with 1 or more (Delta &gt; or =1 stage) after 14 days of diet. RESULTS: During the HPHC diet, 122 patients (79.7%) improved in terms of response definition. A significant decrease in blood ammonia level was observed after 14 days (p&lt;0.0001) in all patients, whatever the improvement of the mental status. A significant improvement in the NCT scores was also noted (p&lt;0.0001). More patients with advanced HE (West Haven stage 3) precipitated by various factors showed a Delta = -2 improvement of their mental status during the modified HPHC diet compared with patients in lower initial stages (50% vs 18.9%, p=0.002). More patients in Child-Pugh B class had a Delta = -2 decrease in the grade of HE compared with patients in Child-Pugh C class (61.7% vs. 14%, p=0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Almost 80% of patients in our study improved their mental status during the casein-vegetable-based HPHC diet, showing that dietary protein restriction is not required for the improvement of HE. A higher rate of improvement was noted in patients with severe impairment of mental status related to precipitating factors and in patients with well preserved liver function. The daily eating pattern consisting of 4 snack-meals and a late evening meal may contribute to HE improvement by equal protein distribution during the day.</div>
    Protein cycling can be used for detox (again from Lyle McDonald on protein cycling, originally from Meso-RX site): <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Perhaps the most important consideration when examining the adaptations to different protein intakes is where the protein is being lost (during protein deprivation) and gained (during protein refeeding). Once again, we must look at animal studies although they provide an incomplete picture for humans.

    Recall from above that tissues vary in their rates of turnover. Liver proteins may be broken down and replaced completely within several hours, while muscle protein may take several days. Tendons and ligaments may take months to a year to turnover. Because of these differences, we would expect there to be differences in the site of protein synthesis and breakdown. Due to their short turnover time (several minutes), liver proteins are thought to be the site of short-term synthesis (after meals) and breakdown (during fasting) (1,22,34).

    Unfortunately, it is methodologically difficult to determine where protein is being lost in humans so we must look at animal models. It should be noted that there are significant differences between animal and human protein metabolism so extrapolation should be made with care. During starvation in rats, the first proteins to be lost are from the liver, with 25-40% of liver protein being lost after 48 hours (34,47). Decreases in the size of other organs such as the heart and brain has also been noted. Muscle protein is not lost until several days later. Considering differences in the rate of protein turnover (see above), it makes sense that proteins with the fastest rates of turnover would be lost first. Readers should note that 48 hours of starvation in the rat corresponds to longer periods of starvation in man.

    By corollary, during refeeding, we would expect that the first proteins to be repleted are liver proteins, with muscle protein being rebuilt afterwards. So while it has been suggested that the low-protein days will cause the loss of liver proteins while the high-protein days will cause the gain of mainly muscle proteins, this seems a highly illogical path for the body to take as it would allow the progressive depletion of organ proteins with the progressive growth of muscle protein. This would most likely eventually result in the death of the organism.</div>
    Lyle points out that protein cycling may not be beneficial if we look at muscle size gains, but we do not know that for certain. From a detoxification standpoint protein cycling may be beneficial.

    There are other benefits for cycling protein. The free amino acid pool will be held relatively constant, regardless of the intake. Excess protein will temporarily flush the body with anabolic levels, but a chronic high intake will make oxidation burn a lot. During the overnight fast, or if you miss a meal, the oxidation may catabolize body protein. Cycling the intake will prevent too high oxidation rate. It will also prime the system so that when you eat a lot of protein, this will have an anabolic effect, due to the slower oxidation rate. What time scale would be beneficial? 24/24 might be suitable for the 24/24 PSMF. An alternative would be to cycle the protein every 3 1/2 day in a 3-3-3-2-2-1-1 fashion. And by this I mean eating 3+ g/kg three days in a row, then 2 g/kg two days, followed by 1 g/kg the two last days, then start over again from 3+. For every 1g/kg drop of protein you substitute this with an added 1 g/kg carbs (to prevent you know what). Detoxification may be helped if you cut down meat protein and substitute this with a casein-vegetable protein+carb source (quinoa and milk for example). The slow decline will prevent a large catabolic response, and the sudden rise will be more anabolic. For a good description, one again read this link. Is it becoming too complicated? Stick with the 24/24 then. It is the easiest to remember.
     

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