Principles of Strength Routines

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Are we talking highrep work for intermediates and up or beginners? In the quest for mass, I consider oly lifters to be large enough, but not the biggest. HST takes in rep ranges with a good degree of success both for hypertrophy and strength. Yet I can't deny what Tim said:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">though I was training to increase strength, if you kept the load static and near your 3RM AND trained at MOST twice per week, my guess is that growth would be restricted but strength maintained or even slightly increase</div>
It would seem as though the waters are clouding here a bit.
 
The bottom line is what I eluded to earlier. It is very difficult to separate strength and hypertrophy.
Sure, efficient neural firing patterns can improve functional strength dramatically, but only up to a point. Once a person has trained enough to develop a near-perfect motor-unit firing pattern for a particular lift, (e.g.- experienced lifters) then there is no way for that person to improve strength without increasing the agonist muscles' cross-section-area via hypertrophy.
 
A good example is curls...Only a few muscles fire in such a simple lift and it doesn't require much neural learning to get really good at contracting the needed muscles to curl. After a few months of lifting a trainee won't be able to increase his ability to recruit muscle-fibers, so the only way to get stronger at curling is to increase the size of the elbow flexors.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Once a person has trained enough to develop a near-perfect motor-unit firing pattern for a particular lift</div>

Sci, how can you explain the success of Slapz or Leige and their stength gains during a cut? I am thinking out loud here, but perhaps, muscle gain is inevitable as a replacement of even more fat mass, so overall body size in my legs will go down?
 
Sci, I prefer to think that muscle size has a relatively narrow range of strength potential while neural adaptation has a much greater range. I'll take your statement about muscle CSA vs strength. If that is so, then a muscle must grow to twice its size to produce twice the strength. The CNS on the other hand can be trained to lift much more than twice the weight for the same muscle size.
 
But neurons don't lift. They only stimulate muscle fibers to contract which do the lifting. And yes, as I said above the nervous system can become more efficient at firing motor units with training, especially on complex compound movements. But think about it: once the nervous system as been trained to fire the appropriate motor units for a lift at a highly efficient rate, then the nervous system can't improve strength much without having either a) larger muscle fibers that fire or B) more muscle fibers involved in the lift by either cheating or hyperplasia of existing muscles.
I won't speculate on strength gains while cutting of specific individuals, because they weren't training in a lab with measurable data. Slapshotz could have been hypertrophying certain muscles, but yes, more likely he was forced to increase his motor-unit firing efficiency in order to improve strength while losing mass, especially since he favors complex compound barbell movements.
I am not arguing against the nervous system being very important to strength since obviously it is responsible for making our muscles move. I am just arguing that strength and hypertrophy are difficult to separate since muscle size is equivalent to muscle force capability. The nervous system is the controller, but the muscles do the mechanical work and it has long been known as scientific fact that a muscle's total force capability is equivalent to its CSA.
I think in Colby's case he probably has plenty of room to get better at the complex movements such as squatting, etc. neurologically so he can easily get stronger while losing weight. But I think diet is the most relevant issue here, not so much training.
Doing a proper strength program while bulking will produce hypertrophy in almost all situations. Doing a proper strength program while cutting won't produce much hypertrophy in almost all situations.
So the question isn't: how should I train if I want strength but not size, so much as: how should I eat if I want strength but not size?
 
That was an excellent post Sci. My HST/strength balanced split training regiment may work for me, but not for other more experienced lifters. The most important question is: How should I eat if I want strength but not size? My answer to this riddle is eating at a rate between a slow-cut and maintenance levels. This may be a bit over the top, but what about an HST/strength balanced routine with wave loading applied to caloric intake?

Sample Week
Day - Time - WO - Caloric Intake - Index
Sun AM low 1
Sun PM low 1
Mon AM low 1
Mon PM HST high 3
Tues AM low 1
Tues PM SST medium 2
Wed AM low 1
Wed PM HST high 3
Thur AM low 1
Thur PM SST medium 2
Fri AM low 1
Fri PM HST high 3
Sat AM low 1
Sat PM low 1
Average 1.571428571

The corresponding index values are fairly trivial. The average consumption over the week comes out to be a low to medium caloric consumption equating to a slow cut. Caloric intake is ramped up around HST workouts for optimal protein synthesis. Medium caloric intakes are around the strength workouts for metabolic reasons; you'll need plenty carbohydrates and protein for an efficient workout no matter if you are cutting or bulking.
 
A lot of technique in the first half. I replayed the snatch over and over...his legs do a little wobble, no harm done, and he dips really low to get under...
after that, it's not any technique that the legs use; it's brute strength. Of course, in the press, the technique comes back into play.
To look at guys this lean and strong, you can sort of see that there is a very high degree of efficiency when they lift. Despite strength, despite technique. There is another factor at play; there HAS to be, which brings you back to neural learning.
 
<div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Jan. 04 2008,17:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't have much to contribute to this thread, but I must say that I've enjoyed reading it. Check out this olympic lifter and the video of him cleaning and jerking 205k (451lbs) at 77k (169lbs). I believe it relates to this discussion.

http://stronglifts.com/wp-content/uploads/ivan-stoitsov.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAuS0R4dozs</div>
Ivan is a great example of ELITE neuromuscular training. His muscles fire in such a complex, rapid, orchestrated fashion as to produce exquisite POWER! Beautiful lift.
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Notice also his amazing muscular size, especially on his thighs and shoulders which are key to the olympic lifts. Most natural bodybuilders would kill to have quadriceps like that.
 
Do you think that may have something to do with the plyometric side of oly training? His legs are awesome, and I wouldn't mind his traps...the very primary muscles he uses for that lift.
 
As I have a stinky cold and can't sleep I thought I'd throw something in here. I am high on aspirin so it may seem a bit wacko!
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In a non-fatigued state, when attempting a 1RM, it is very rare that we tear our tendons clean off our bones or rip our muscles in half (yes, it has happened but it is quite rare, especially in an individual that has warmed up). We might think that this is just because the tensile strength of muscle tissue and tendon is higher than the maximum force output of all activated motor units when firing in tetany. However, I think it has been shown that the very violent muscular contractions that are caused when a person is electrocuted have caused muscles and ligaments to tear and joints to be damaged. So, if this is the case (and I don't have any proof of this but I have heard about it - maybe it's all tosh?), then our bodies are evidently able to keep some strength in reserve or as a protection, the implication being that not all fibres are contracting even when we try for a 1RM.

This might also suggest a reason for the cases of hysterical strength that we sometimes hear about in the news (when someone performs a feat of strength beyond their expected ability in a crisis situation). However, these may be more folklore than fact.

Any thoughts? (other than &quot;Get off the aspirin already!&quot;
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)
 
I think it has to do with the fact that he has to front squat that enormous weight after he cleans it!!! I tried front squats briefly and for me they hit the quadriceps like nothing else, even with light weights.
Most guys are really deep in a front squat too after they clean a big weight. Actually, I have never seen a oly lifter who didn't have impressive quadriceps.

Hmmm...maybe I should throw them in my routine again! Back squats hit my glutes mainly so even though I use alot more weight, I don't feel nearly as much strain in the quads as front squats. Long-torso syndrome!
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<div>
(Lol @ Jan. 04 2008,22:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As I have a stinky cold and can't sleep I thought I'd throw something in here. I am high on aspirin so it may seem a bit wacko!  
biggrin.gif


In a non-fatigued state, when attempting a 1RM, it is very rare that we tear our tendons clean off our bones or rip our muscles in half (yes, it has happened but it is quite rare, especially in an individual that has warmed up). We might think that this is just because the tensile strength of muscle tissue and tendon is higher than the maximum force output of all activated motor units when firing in tetany. However, I think it has been shown that the very violent muscular contractions that are caused when a person is electrocuted have caused muscles and ligaments to tear and joints to be damaged. So, if this is the case (and I don't have any proof of this but I have heard about it - maybe it's all tosh?), then our bodies are evidently able to keep some strength in reserve or as a protection, the implication being that not all fibres are contracting even when we try for a 1RM.

This might also suggest a reason for the cases of hysterical strength that we sometimes hear about in the news (when someone performs a feat of strength beyond their expected ability in a crisis situation). However, these may be more folklore than fact.

Any thoughts? (other than &quot;Get off the aspirin already!&quot;  
laugh.gif
)</div>
I think there is some truth to that statement. We were just discussing this at Dan's forum. If maximum frequency fused tetany really occurs with a 1rm, even in trained individuals? Some compelling research points to &quot;no&quot;... there may be some built-in neural limit to volitional muscle force as you pointed out Lol.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Jan. 05 2008,03:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think there is some truth to that statement.  We were just discussing this at Dan's forum.  If maximum frequency fused tetany really occurs with a 1rm, even in trained individuals?  Some compelling research points to &quot;no&quot;... there may be some built-in neural limit to volitional muscle force as you pointed out Lol.</div>
Thanks for the tip off, Sci. I'll head over to Dan's place now...
 
Back to the original point of this thread. Through some conversation with Tim in his log concerning 10 x 3, I developed this strength routine:

Three day SST split combo of 10x3 and Westside
Day 1: Deadlift 10 x 3, Speed Squats 3 x 15
Day 2: Squats 10 x 3, Speed Cleans 3 x 15
Day 3: Cleans 10 x 3, Speed Deadlifts 3 x 15

10 x 3 starts off at 80% 1RM, and 3 x 15 speed starts at 70-80% of 15RM... The 10 x 3 can have 10% increases each week for strength purposes. The speed exercises work the high reps for extra volume and endurance work. The load still progresses each week, but zig-zags just like the Russ 10 x 3 routine does within the week. Combined with caloric wave loading, the trainee (being me) can customizable this strength routine to be hypertrophy specific just as well. This routine can also be thrown in with a standard 3x/week HST cycle. Obviously, it is only advises for an HST veteran who is interested in high frequency lifting with extreme specialization.
 
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