reps

S

sp8cemunkie

New Member
I have been doing HST now for a year. I've never responded well to low rep routines but figured I'd give it a shot. While my strength has grown a lot, my size is not increasing like i hoped it would. By the time I'm into the 2nd week of 5's I get no pump at all. I was thinking of doing 12's and 7's now. Of course I'd have to drop the weights a bit to accomodate the higher reps. Does this go against progressive load?
 
I'm not really sure where you are in the cycle, but if starting a new one, why not just increase the rep ranges if you feel you respond better to higher reps. There's no reason why the HST principles can't still be used.  Depending where you might be in your 5's, I'd either play it out or simply SD and start again with the higher ranges.

I also seem to be responding better to higher reps and was considering a 16-12-8 scheme.  Might be wise to also set them according to muscle group.  Anyone else out there try this concept with results?
 
I currently do 12's and 8's for the reasons the OP mentioned and to limit risk of injury with higher weight, lower rep sets (no spotter). For now. I am responding better than the normal 15, 10 and 5 rep program. Also, I do a double body split working with 12's on M and T and 8's on Th and F instead of doing 12's for a couple of weeks, etc. So I work each body part twice per week. You cannot find what is best for you at any given time if you don't experiment.
 
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(sp8cemunkie @ Dec. 08 2007,13:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have been doing HST now for a year. I've never responded well to low rep routines but figured I'd give it a shot. While my strength has grown a lot, my size is not increasing like i hoped it would. By the time I'm into the 2nd week of 5's I get no pump at all. I was thinking of doing 12's and 7's now. Of course I'd have to drop the weights a bit to accomodate the higher reps. Does this go against progressive load?</div>
Pump does not equal growth.

Pump has nothing to do with growth.

How much are you eating? If you have gained strength, but not any significant size, that suggest you are not eating enough.
 
From the FAQS:

This is a very subjective topic, and some will say they see greater gains during 15s and 10s, while others will say during the 5s and negs. The glycogen-depleting high rep phases of the 15s and 10s necessitate a higher carb and calorie intake if you want to stay in a surplus to build muscle. During the lower volume, lower rep phase of 5s, you may decrease carbs if you notice fat gain. People who notice most of their gains during 5s most likely didn't eat sufficiently during 15s and 10s.

Please remember that the stimulus for growth has nothing to do with any specific rep count or rep range, but has everything to do with the frequency, progression, and effective SD as per the HST principles. So in theory you should be growing at a constant rate throughout the cycle, but this doesn't always happen due to the way people eat and implement the HST program.

- Blade


Here are a few things to think about:

1) The leaner you are, the easier it will be to see gains.

2) The better you eat (proper diet for gaining muscle), the greater the gains will be. (This cannot be emphasized enough)

3) The better the person has done his/her SD, the faster they will see gains.

4) The more muscular the person already is, the easier it will be to see gains.

So all of these factors will have an effect on what people see in the mirror when they begin HST.

I personally usually &quot;feel&quot; sore by the 3rd workout of the first week of 15s. I usually see an increase in size/fullness and slight increase in bodyweight (1-2 pounds) by the middle of the second week of 15s. Keep in mind, I really know how to SD!
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- Bryan
 
Sp8, you never said how many sets you were using either. If you're doing less than 2 sets for tens, or 3 sets for fives, it may not be enough for stimulation of all fiber/motor units.
 
Personally, what I find limits injuries is using correct form.

Don't fool yourselves, you can hurt yourself just as easily with a light weight as you can with a heavy weight. In fact, I think most of us that have had injuries probably incurred those injuries during our day to day life, not during weightlifting. That would mean we were using loads that are significantly lighter than what we use when he lift, in many cases this involves only your bodyweight. Yet you get hurt.

Avoiding low reps is not going to prevent injury. Besides, I think we all know by now that rep range doesn't even matter anyway. Load, progression, these are the things that matter. Oh, and eating of course. If you aren't eating, you aren't growing.
 
Actually, if you aren't manufacturing enough testosterone in your body, you can do everything 100% correct and still see little gains. It is the least discussed topic in BBing but probably one of the most important.
 
Personally I do not see any need going below 3 reps.

The chance of injury IMO is too high.

If size is all you are interested in see no need to drop below 5 reps.

However I have been expirenced for many many years and Tot is right about the one thing around injuries and that is my devastating injury had to do with being stupid and not lifting correctly.
 
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(Old and Grey @ Dec. 09 2007,11:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Actually, if you aren't manufacturing enough testosterone in your body, you can do everything 100% correct and still see little gains. It is the least discussed topic in BBing but probably one of the most important.</div>
I don't see it being a huge issue for those under 30. Even then, for older folks, if you are getting regular physicals and your doctor is at least up to date on what is important in male health, those sort of problems should be identified when they come up and addressed by your doctor. If not... well, maybe you should find a better doctor. And if you aren't getting regular physicals, then you should.

When discussing things that the lifter can directly control, then I stand by my statement: load, progression and eating are what matter most.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Dec. 09 2007,12:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Personally I do not see any need going below 3 reps.

The chance of injury IMO is too high.

If size is all you are interested in see no need to drop below 5 reps.</div>
This is one issue where I will not relent. Bodybuilders are simply too scared of low reps and I don't see why. It's not like there is some magic where if you only do low reps, you won't grow.

If you've ever done a max rep for deadlifts, you'll understand the value of doing singles at least now and then. I do them at the end of every cycle for my big lifts - it's the best measuring stick for strength progress, and strength progress is, in my opinion, one of the most important parts of building the body you want, at the very least when you look at it in the long term, but also in the short term.
If you go from a max deadlift of 315 and after one cycle, you can now pull 345 for a max, then you know you've made progress even if it isn't immediately apparent in the mirror.
And lets be honest about the mirror - most of us don't see ourselves the way we really are. Either you see yourself as larger than you are, or like many of us, you see yourself as in much poorer condition than you really are. Which is why numbers are more reliable.

Now obviously anecdotal evidence isn't the most reliable, but I think you'll find that most of us around here who have managed to pull 400 lbs or more (which isn't that huge of an accomplishment, but is definitely one of the big milestones in lifting) have incorporated singles, doubles or triples in their training at least somewhere. I can name several guys on this very forum who are included in this statement.


Moral? There is nothing to fear from going heavy. On the contrary, the thing you should fear is never pushing yourself hard enough.
 
i agree theres nothing finer than pushing your max's at the end of a cycle. you can take note of any improvements you have made on your last cycle.
it also gives the body that final push before you sd. singles can only be seen as hazzardous if you get sloppy, keep good form and concentrate on what you are doing and you should be fine.

dont worry about not getting &quot;the pump&quot;, yes it has its benefits but it is not the standard by which you can measure growth.
 
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(Totentanz @ Dec. 09 2007,01:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Dec. 09 2007,12:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Personally I do not see any need going below 3 reps.

The chance of injury IMO is too high.

If size is all you are interested in see no need to drop below 5 reps.</div>
This is one issue where I will not relent.  Bodybuilders are simply too scared of low reps and I don't see why.  It's not like there is some magic where if you only do low reps, you won't grow.

If you've ever done a max rep for deadlifts, you'll understand the value of doing singles at least now and then.  I do them at the end of every cycle for my big lifts - it's the best measuring stick for strength progress, and strength progress is, in my opinion, one of the most important parts of building the body you want, at the very least when you look at it in the long term, but also in the short term.
If you go from a max deadlift of 315 and after one cycle, you can now pull 345 for a max, then you know you've made progress even if it isn't immediately apparent in the mirror.
And lets be honest about the mirror - most of us don't see ourselves the way we really are.  Either you see yourself as larger than you are, or like many of us, you see yourself as in much poorer condition than you really are.  Which is why numbers are more reliable.

Now obviously anecdotal evidence isn't the most reliable, but I think you'll find that most of us around here who have managed to pull 400 lbs or more (which isn't that huge of an accomplishment, but is definitely one of the big milestones in lifting) have incorporated singles, doubles or triples in their training at least somewhere.  I can name several guys on this very forum who are included in this statement.


Moral?  There is nothing to fear from going heavy.  On the contrary, the thing you should fear is never pushing yourself hard enough.</div>
I bascially agree with you Tot.

However if I had never torn a pec then maybe I wouldn't be afraid of all the research that shows were the majority of torn muscles come from. (singles and doubles)

I also agree that if you have or haven't ever been injured that there is nothing finer and more satisfying that beating a personal 1 rep max.

However I still do not see any benefit in going below your 5 rep max (99% of the time) if your goal is hypertrophy.

I could be wrong?

And I also agree that you can be too scared and not push yourself enough.

But again away from being a ego booster and a measure of strength...I don't see were the risk / return is there for hypertrophy?

Agree or disagree?
rock.gif
Or am I looking at this all wrong?
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Dec. 09 2007,15:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">then maybe I wouldn't be afraid of all the research that shows were the majority of torn muscles come from. (singles and doubles)</div>
What research?
 
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(Dan Moore @ Dec. 09 2007,04:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What research?</div>
I knew that BS was coming.

I don't have the records/documents/whatever saved...but I have read it.
 
When talking about whether a load is heavy or not it is much more useful to talk in terms of %age of 1RM rather than numbers of reps, or to specify a particular RM, eg 3RM. That way we all have a better sense of the kind of loads that we are talking about.

My guess is that the majority of torn/pulled muscles come from:

1) attempts to lift too heavy a weight without warming up thoroughly,

2) generally sloppy/bad form,

3) continuing to push for extra reps at the end of a set when fatigue has set in; it is then very easy for form to alter and for load to be shifted to muscles other than the primary movers (this is much more dangerous for a strong person using a heavy load than a weaker person using a lighter load),

4) pushing the load up when you know that your form is going to suffer,

5) for certain movements, relying on the stretch reflex to get the load moving from its lowest point,

5) not stopping a set at the first indication that something 'isn't quite right', whether with the load (I watched a guy try to persevere with some squats; the bar was loaded with some extra 10kg plates one side, matched with 10lb plates on the other. He thought he was going weak on one side! I got him to re-rack the bar ASAP) or from within (my calf pull was worse than it should have been because I ignored the weird stretching feeling and pushed for a few more reps. Then it really hurt! Doh!).

Occasional minor muscle pulls/tears are an occupational hazard and will effect most of us at some time or another. Occasionally, someone might sustain a more serious tear even if they have done everything they can to avoid the main causes. $*!% happens! Is that what happened in your case Joe or do I recall that you were over egging it a bit?
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For certain exercises I am much happier to push for max singles. Deads are my favourite because I find it difficult to lose control (C of G stays low) and I can let go of the weight in an instant if need be. They don't force any muscles into a maximally stretched position either. I don't mind pushing for a max single squat or bench either as long as I have a spotter handy just in case.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Dec. 09 2007,16:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Dan Moore @ Dec. 09 2007,04:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What research?</div>
I knew that BS was coming.

I don't have the records/documents/whatever saved...but I have read it.</div>
No BS, curiousity.

I would seriously like to have seen that.
 
Lol,

My torn muscle was choice number 1)

I didn't warm up properly at all.

I bench 135 then went straight to 275 and then straight to 315 and POP ripped my tendon.

Mine was absolutly stupidity.

However I couldn't train for 6 weeks at all so what I did was read and read and read some more on torn pecs and recovery and that is were my research of real world accidents and mistakes of torn pecs came from.

The majority of the cases I read about were individuals who either:

A) did not warm correct or

B) even after properly warmin up were attempting a single or double attempt.
 
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(Dan Moore @ Dec. 09 2007,05:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Dec. 09 2007,16:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Dan Moore @ Dec. 09 2007,04:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What research?</div>
I knew that BS was coming.

I don't have the records/documents/whatever saved...but I have read it.</div>
No BS, curiousity.

I would seriously like to have seen that.</div>
I wish I could point you toward the papers...but unfortunatly I can't.

It was 6 to 8 weeks of google and yahoo searches!
 
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