Rethinking Hst

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by HST_Rihad, Nov 25, 2014.

  1. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Rihad, I too do only one set but I do it by muscle group which, I believe, solves the dilemma of getting the benefits of high effective volume because I follow up the first set with 3 -5 Myo Sets of Myo Reps of 2-3. I solve the riddle of which exercise to use by doing four different workouts each mini-cycle. For frequency I use 4 - 6 workouts per week but it usually starts out at 6 and by the beginning of the third week drops to 5 and by the final 2 weeks drops to 4 as the weight approaches my RM. Obviously that happens that way because I use DUP. 12 and 8 reps are my chosen reps for various reasons that may not apply to you younger lifters.

    Info for grammar freaks: Dilemma has never been spelled correctly with an 'n' in it despite what we may have been taught and seen over the years.
     
  2. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    In my own experience the best results I've achieved in any exercise has been using just a single set, 3 times per week. Every time I try doing more than one quality working set, progress tends to slow down (by progress I mean strength/rep gains). In both 4-5 and 9-10 rep sets. Multiple sets are meaningful only when RPE is lower, meaning do sets of 10s using your 12RM loads. Or sets of 5s using your 6RM loads. But I'm not comfortable with either. One quality set is better than several lower load sets. Even if by the end of the final set you feel as worked out.
     
  3. krysix

    krysix New Member

    As far as I know every study I've seen supports multiple sets vs single sets. If you do one set everyday you have 7 sets per week and it's not as low volume routine but I don't see the reason to not do more sets if you can recover from them. Most powerlifters I've seen use periodization and they do volume cycles where they supercompensate and then they reduce the volume and do an intensity cycle where they yield the results from the volume cycle. They also add volume as they get stronger/more advanced. Just look at layne norton, he uses dup training with high frequency and he does volume cycles and intensity cycles. Mike zourdos (the guy that has popularized DUP) also do this, in fact is the trainer of norton).

    IMO total weekly volume is the key to progress, you need as much volume as you need to progress and when you plateau you add more volume and so on. The only exception to this is if you are overtraining, in that case reducing volume is needed ofc but not because volume is bad but because of poor programming.

    In the bodybuilding forum there is a bodybuilding routine that many people has had success with that have you adding volume as you get stronger. the volume is high and you supercompensate during 3 weeks, then deload 1 week and come back stronger. If you plateau add more volume. He uses it for strength too but in lower reps and doing so much volume that he loses strength overtime but after a deload he is much stronger than before.
     
  4. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    The super-compensation principle is essentially the same thing I am talking about. It definitely works, especially for those who have been training for a long time. It will work for newbies just as well but obviously isn't necessary for them.
     
  5. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    It could simply take a seasoned lifter more time to progress using the same volume. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Say a person is lifting 50x5 in a single set (it doesn't matter if it's kilos or pounds). That's estimated as 56x1. For him progressing to 50x6 would be analogous to lifting 58x1. 2 kg/lb difference in strength/size. Now fast forward several years later, when he's 100x5 (112x1) strong. Advancing to 100x6 (116x1) would require him to get 4 kg/lb stronger, that's twice as much strength to gain! And it might take twice as much time it took him to progress from 50x5 to 50x6. So progress doesn't necessarily slow down (although it might), it's just that gaining another rep is much more costly.
     
  6. krysix

    krysix New Member

    I disagree. Of course adding weight to the bar or reps when you are stronger it's way harder, no question about it. What I mean is that you can´t do 1 set of one exercise and expect to progress forever, it just doesn't happen, the body needs more stimulus. so maybe now with 3 heavy sets per week you are able to progress but as you get more advanced you will need more volume or you won't grow or get stronger. The needed volume for each person is different and depends on many factors but it always increases as you get stronger/more advanced.

    For example Mark rippetoe advises to use the texas method after SS when you stall cause it has more volume and it's needed to keep progressing. In the madcow routine it's also advised to move to the advanced program with higher volume when you stall on the intermediate routine because you need higher volume. Candito, a popular natural raw powerlifter in youtube, has been stalled on bench press for a long time and it's his weakest exercise and now he is focusing on it, training it more often and with higher volume and is setting PRs again. Sheiko, aprogram for advanced lifers has a shitload of volume. And so on.
     
  7. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Actually it can happen if you take it a step further. You start with that one set 3 times per week. As you adapt, you add more sets until you are working that one set out every day. You keep adding another workout, it can be 6 or 8 hours later until you work out twice per day, then 3 times per day, etc. Efficient, no. Effective, yes. Will you grow huge if you keep to one set per day three times per week? No. I find using Myo Sets/Reps an efficient way to overcome this stagnation.
     
  8. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Since I train full body in a single session, most of my muscles see at least 2 sets 3 times per week, even though I do just one working set per exercise:
    incline bench + dips
    squats + deads + leg curls + hyperextensions + calf raises
    seated rows or pulldowns + one-arm bent rows + shrugs
    standing BB press + seated Smith machine press

    (not in this order)

    Adding more sets could actually slow down progress.
    At this time one set per exercise is enough to get stronger in it.
     
  9. krysix

    krysix New Member

    I agree, when I say volume I mean weekly volume, if you do 1 set every 8 hours thats a lot of volume. and Myo reps are an awesome tool to do a lot of volume close to failure in less time.

    And rihad if you are progressing with that volume it's perfect, keep doing it, but eventually you will stall and will need more volume. till then enjoy your gains. You gotta do the minimun amount of volume to make progress and once you stall you add a little more and so on.
     
  10. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    In my experience, if the adding more volume slows down your progress you probably just aren't recovering quick enough. While there are quite a few ways to recover faster the simplest is just eat and sleep more.
     
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Not 100% in agreement on sleep ('rest'/'be inactive' is probably a better approach).

    Hot/cold stimulus will help too in my experience. Sometimes massage, foam rolling etc.

    Otherwise .. spot on. Stimulus is useless if you can't induce the adaptation, and that won't happen without recovery.
     
  12. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    Adequate quality sleep is paramount to recovery. If you aren't getting enough sleep your recovery will be limited, and getting "rest" will only help to make up for poor sleep slightly.
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Agreed. But I think (as with most things) that the optimum is around the middle of the spectrum. Simply adding/forcing sleep beyond what is necessary will not improve recovery in my opinion.
     
  14. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Speaking of multiple sets per exercise, their RPE is what matters. I could recover and progress from 3 sets of 10 reps with 2 min. rest where I only got close to failure by the end of set 3 no problem. It's when all three sets are equally intensive (with rep count falling in subsequent sets) that recovery starts to slow down. No, I don't lose strength between workouts, although the sets don't feel lighter by any means either. I can repeat the loads/sets/reps I did there. I just don't get stronger quickly. Like repeating 9,6,5 four times in a row with no progress. Or 4,3,2. All quality reps. It might take me 5-6 workouts before I'm able to do another rep anywhere. Single set is better in this regard, like 4 reps, or 9 reps, that's it, they usually feel a bit lighter on the very next workout, so 1-2 workouts after I can usually add a rep. It took seated Smith presses (where I only do 1 working set) just 2 workouts on the newer 3 rep load, and on the third workout I could already push it 4 times.
     
  15. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Of course like everyone else I do hit a plateau sooner or later. Instead of increasing the volume and risking overtraining, another option is deloading for a few weeks, allowing CNS to recover. Then single volume works again. And I still take an SD before deloads, just in case.
     
  16. krysix

    krysix New Member

    A deload is useful when you have accumulated fatigue or are super-compensating, but it won't do anything if you are doing less volume than you can recover from or even less volume than needed to elicit grow.
     
  17. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Sure thing, one should only do lower volume if he's progressing, consistently adding weight to the bar. Until recovering abilities are outweighed by the accumulated damage, which spells plateau. There would be a nice time to de-load and/or SD.
     
  18. FistOfFury

    FistOfFury Member

    Sounds like Leo Costa's Big Beyond Belief program from 20 odd years ago. Is this what you are basing it on?
    I have a copy of the book somewhere and there is a pdf version floating around online. It still has a strong following and a lot of people swear by it.
     
  19. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Same effect as in BBB can be mimicked in HST by doing higher volume/shorter rest periods with the lower loads, slowly tapering off into higher load & lower volume 5's. Theoretically.

    It's sad Bryan hasn't had the time to keep HST updated for so long.
     
  20. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    There is nothing to update in the principles.
     

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