Straddling the fence

Avi, 290 grams is at the upper range according to the formula. How much you actually need depends on the amount of glycogen depletion. From what I have read the window of opportunity is not more than 4-6 hours when you have a favorable and accelerated glycogen storage. When the liver glycogen stores begins to be filled the primary fuel will be glycogen until the stores are becoming depleted (approx 12 hours after the last meal). The body gradually switches over to fat as primary fuel (although a large part of the fuel already is fat). It is a delicate balance to fill the muscles to the rim and avoid filling the liver (and it's not that simplistic). I would aim at the lower part of the carb-range if I wasn't sure (~240 grams). In time the body will tell you if you need more carbs - performance will suffer in the multi-set excersises.

No other carb up days here. The carb loading occurs only post workout when the window of opportunity presents itself. The UD thinking only applies when you are maxing out depletion during mo-fr and supercompensate during the weekend. That is, according to testimonials, very hard. The amount of depletion will be less during an every-other-day carb up scheme, so we can't expect to be able to supercompensate to the same amount (not 150-170 mmol/kg as in UD [if memory serves me right]). Perhaps up to 100-120 mmol/kg, but that is speculation.

Your TKD example have a slightly higher amount of carbs/week (100 grams day 1-6 and 700 grams day 7). I find it hard to go less than 50 grams of carbs per day so IMO it would be ok to cut some of the carbs from the workout days and have some during the off days, as long as the weekly amount stays the same. This way you can have your vegetables every day. This would be a 230-50-230-50-230-50-50 week (890 grams total) for the higher range or 175-50-175-50-175-50-50 week (725 grams total) for the lower range (if workouts are m-w-f). Modify to your hearts content as long as most of the carbs are eaten post workout.

65-100 grams of whey shake post workout may be a bit troublesome to digest. I think evenly spaced out during 2-3 hours will make it easier to digest. As Bryan recommends ingest a moderate amount of protein and carbs pre workout and it will be available during workout (minimize wasting of hard earned muscle). 2 grams/kg of protein a day should be enough (approx 1 gram/lb).

I am awaiting the book on IF that Martin Berkhan is writing at the moment. He and Lyle have talked about co-writing the book. Martin said that he would give some info on what macronutrient ratios and amounts that worked best for him and his clients (most lean gains or fat loss).
 
BTW, it's important to stay at maintenance calories during the week. We do not want to our metabolism to slow down. For the sake of increasing PS post workout it would be beneficial to eat plenty on workout days and cut some on off days. The carb up day that is mentioned in the article quad found, was aimed to refill muscle glycogen and bump up the metabolism. If we refill muscle gylcogen during the week and keep the metabolism high, this carb up day should not be neccessary.
 
Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong, as I think if you're aiming for fatloss, the amounts of carbs used to fuel the metabolism consistently would cut back the amount of fat used for fuel?
Incidentally, I've been PM'ing with Wisselj and he'd recommended the same as you did for the TKD, so there's one more anecdote in favor of the less severe restrictions. Coach Hale even mentioned that the UD style is very hard to stay with. I doubt I could do it very long.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 03 2008,15:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong, as I think if you're aiming for fatloss, the amounts of carbs used to fuel the metabolism consistently would cut back the amount of fat used for fuel?
Incidentally, I've been PM'ing with Wisselj and he'd recommended the same as you did for the TKD, so there's one more anecdote in favor of the less severe restrictions. Coach Hale even mentioned that the UD style is very hard to stay with. I doubt I could do it very long.</div>
That's because you fear greatness:D
 
Good summary.

A snippet on TKD:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2.3: What is a &quot;TKD&quot;
A:  Targeted Ketogenic Diet.  It is essentially a ketogenic diet where carbohydrate intake is timed around weight training workouts. The goal is to provide enough short term energy to exercise effectively without disrupting  ketosis.  The amount of carbs to be consumed is determined by the number of sets to be performed.  Lyle McDonald has suggested  5 grams for every two sets to be performed as a guideline. A person planning for 10 sets would consume 25 grams preworkout using these guidelines.   Most TKD followers use abbreviated weight training routines: i.e., HIT /Hardgainer, where only one or two sets of an exercise are performed.  An extensive listing of sample abbreviated routines can be found at: http://www.cyberpump.com/workouts/workpage.html .  Carbohydrates are generally consumed 30 minutes prior to workout. Others have found sucess with carb intake during their workout.  Some TKDers also take in  post-workout carbs, generally with some protein to aid in recovery.  Fat intake should be avoided when taking in whatever source of carbs is chosen.  Experimentation with the amount and timing of carbohydrate consumption will generally be necessary to get the results desired.
Glucose /Glucose polymers are often used as preworkout carbs. &quot;Smarties&quot; (U.S. version only) and &quot;Sweettarts&quot; are popular pre-workout carbs, but anything that is easily digestable and will give the desired amount of carbs is fine. [HC]
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Some comments: 5 grams for every 2 sets. I do not know, but assumes, this means for every two sets of exercise on whatever muscle group. Using one set per group, doing a whole body workout (forearms-bi-tri-delt-pec-trap-lats-lower back-abs-thighs-hams-calfes), that is 12 sets equalling 6x5=30 grams of carbs. I do not think most of us are doing less than 2 sets per group, so that is more like 60 grams. Doing three sets per group is 90 grams total. Large muscle groups require more glycogen and smaller groups require less, so the total amount will probably the same. 90 grams is a whole lot less than Lyle recomends for the UD2 CKD. But the pure TKD'ers are trying to stay in ketosis. That is not necessary, as Lyle himself have stated for the UD2. Our goal is gaining LBM without excessive fat gains so we favor performance issues (too weak to lift is not a good way to build muscle). We have one other issue: If muscle glycogen gets too low, protein will be used for fuel. That we do not want. So we have to make sure we get enough carbs, but not to much if we want our fat burning and muscles growing.

A snippet on deciding if to do a CKD:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Should I be doing a CKD?
A: It depends on your goals and your starting point. CKDs were originally designed for competitive bodybuilders who need to have as little body fat and retain as much LBM as possible. While these goals are consistent with that of most low carb dieters, many followers of a CKD start off with a greater relative amount of LBM and are experienced weight trainers. The amount of work they are able to do in their weight training sessions will exceed that of novice trainees. You don't need to be an experienced trainee to benefit from the principles of the CKD, but this should be kept in mind when discussing exercise protocols and details of the diet. A number of people find a CKD difficult to follow and can accrue most of the benefits of the plan from following the exercise recommendations discussed on the list with whatever low carb eating plan they can follow (i.e. CAD, PP, etc).[HC] </div>
Some comments: Unless we are advanced bodybuilders, the amount of carbs recommended for CKD can be too high, as this article also mentions. So we may need to cut some of the carbs out. Lyle's UD2 sample workouts are 8x3x2 sets on both monday and tuesday, then 12x2 sets on thursday, followed by the carb up. Then on sunday there is another 11x3 sets. That is 153 sets! Talk about depletion! If we use the 5 grams every 2 sets as recommended that is 380 grams. But that is not what is recommended for the UD2. As I posted earlier, it was 12-16grams/kg (7-8 grams of carbs/lb). One purpose of the carb up is an anabolic rebound.  Again, I think we will have to be somewhere in the middle. Not to little, not to much. We want our anabolic rebound every time we workout, not only once a week. Growing the whole week is why we do HST in the first place. And we also want to live like normal people, right? Some cheat meals we can allow. We are not spartans (I think).
tounge.gif


And, yes quad. I think carbs will elevate insulin levels so fat mobilization is hindered. Carbs are used as fuel when available, but some fat are also used as fuel. It just hit me: When the fat stores in muscle cells (used for fuel) becomes depleted no fat will be mobilized from the fat cells because of the elevated insulin, and the only fuel sources are carbs and protein (horrendous thought!). Fat just stays put in the fat cells (I have no data available right now on how much %fat the muscles use for fuel or how large the fat stores in muscles generally are, but the logic still holds). Fat mobilization is also hindered by eating fat too, so that is why I think an IF approach can be beneficial (although eating fat will refill the muscle fat stores and save those precious proteins from becoming fumes). IF provides a low insulin enviroment and no digested fats means that stored fat can be mobilized and used for fuel throughout, except post workout. The narrower the time window of eating, the more fat-burning can be accomplished during the fasting hours (well, we have to wait for the process to pick up speed once insulin levels stabilizes and glucagon kicks in). Now, don't go overboard and eat everything in one meal! Just keep the furnace burning whenever you can.
 
Nkl: do you have anything on the time factors for fatburning with any diets, particularly the IF? I've been discussing fasted workouts with Tot in my log but still wonder: is the &quot;furnace&quot; really burning much after around 8-10 hrs of fasting? A workout at this point would seem to need something (I keep thinking proteins, but that may be imbedded thought) and Tot mentioned that some do fasted workouts. I tried to post in Dan's site but it's totally shut down to read-only now.
I recall that we found fasted cardio to be unnecessary but can't correlate that with lifting.
Incidentally, 3 days of IF and I'm pretty sure my metabolism has slowed; I sure don't feel like working out at all. Taking a thermo in on an empty stomach probably won't be good either.
 
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(nkl @ Apr. 03 2008,04:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, it's important to stay at maintenance calories during the week. We do not want to our metabolism to slow down. For the sake of increasing PS post workout it would be beneficial to eat plenty on workout days and cut some on off days. The carb up day that is mentioned in the article quad found, was aimed to refill muscle glycogen and bump up the metabolism. If we refill muscle gylcogen during the week and keep the metabolism high, this carb up day should not be neccessary.</div>
If i stay at maintenance i wont lose weight.
And if i understand you right. On no training days i should eat 50 grams of carbs (all from vegetables ) and on training days 175-230 grams of carbs. Pre workout i should eat an apple and post workout the rest of my carbs?
And another question, one hour of thai boxing training
should be considered as workout?
 
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(Avi1985 @ Apr. 04 2008,15:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And another question, one hour of thai boxing training
should be considered as workout?</div>
I would consider an hour of thai boxing to be cardio.
 
<div>
(TunnelRat @ Apr. 04 2008,18:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Avi1985 @ Apr. 04 2008,15:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And another question,  one hour of thai boxing training  
should be considered as workout?</div>
I would consider an hour of thai boxing to be cardio.</div>
But should i eat around thai box training like eating around weight training?
 
Quad, if you feel that your metabolism is slowing down, I would alternate IF with something that fires up the metabolism again. Keeping the same calories as before, why would the metabolism slow down? It might alternate between lower and higher depending on energy levels.

Leptin is sensitive to changes in energy levels, and leptin levels show a high correlation with bodyfat levels. The fat cell 'senses' whether you are storing or burning energy, and that regulates production of leptin. One of the things with an UD is to bump up leptin levels by overeating during the carb-load. With an every other-day carb up/overeating scheme it will never allow leptin levels to drop that far (go on a diet and it can drop 50% in a week). That is why I say stay at maintenance for the whole of the week (or slighly higher/lower depending on goals). If overeating on alternating days isn't enough to bump leptin levels, we need to insert days without fasting. It is important to not drop the metabolism. In the fasted state, after a while, adrenalin levels rise and adrenalin should speed up the metabolism (also when working out).

Is the temperature lower? The termic effect from digesting and absorbing food will be less, since there is no food for several hours. I myself have bounced between IF and days of regular eating, low-carbish some days, occasionally high-carbish. On IF days I can also feel the temp going down a notch. Then, some hour after overeating I feel warm. Carbs have a slightly higher termic effect than fat. Protein generates most heat.  

As to how much fat is burned after 8-10 hours after last meal, well, it depends on a lot of parameters, such as the macronutrient ratio, the amount of food, and a lot of other factors. Digestion and absorbtion of macronutriens depends on the ratio. A meal higher in fat and proteins take longer to digest (3-5 hours). Carbs are faster (2-3 hours). If the carbs are complex, such as disaccarides (fructose and lactose) it will pass through the liver before being released as glucose into the bloodstream. If the liver is well fed, it will take some time to empty the stores. If we eat more carbs than we can store (normally 400 grams of glycogen) the body will rev up the oxidation of glycogen, while oxidation of fat decreases and it is stored instead (meaning we have a higher metabolism, but not a fat burning metabolism). 400 grams of glycogen will last approx 12 hours for a normal metabolism, after wich the stores of fat will be used primarily.

How much fat is used for fuel? One source says it is normally 60-70% (data from a textbook on metabolism for medical students). But I have no data on how this changes for different levels of liver glycogen. Someone? I will try to look it up.
 
I must have more metabolism than I thought then: my workout at 10 hrs. fasting was nothing short of awesome: it matched strengths to the one before it on a full CHO/PRO load. I won't say I didn't FEEL like working out; it just went well once I got in there. It could be the SuperDrol helping, but the two workouts were consistent, so I've gotten fuel from somewhere; where else but fat? It's in my log.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 05 2008,10:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I must have more metabolism than I thought then: my workout at 10 hrs. fasting was nothing short of awesome: it matched strengths to the one before it on a full CHO/PRO load. I won't say I didn't FEEL like working out; it just went well once I got in there. It could be the SuperDrol helping, but the two workouts were consistent, so I've gotten fuel from somewhere; where else but fat? It's in my log.</div>
That was my experience as well. During IF when I was cutting, I was having awesome workouts.

Right now I am too, but I don't think it's a fair comparison since I'm still consuming greater than maintenance calories.

The great thing about IF is that any real metabolic slowdown you experience is very likely going to be corrected when you break the fast and get all your calories in. It's sort of like a refeed but done on a daily basis.
 
I'm doing something wrong somehow. I was getting tired, so raised the calories just a bit, then gained a couple pounds back. But didn't feel any better, and still don't. It's complicated by the new job, but overall I've slowed the weightloss, gotten fatigued, (that could be the Superdrol), and just don't feel much like working out.
I tried a refeed day and that didn't seem to do anything either, so it's not food that's the issue. Can't live on thermogenics, so I don't really have any ideas for this.
EDIT: after reading post 31 again, I have some idea that it may be the macros at fault or I'm simply just a wimp when it comes to being hungry. I even experimented with nuts yesterday, inducing some extra fat intake, but to no avail; I don't want to hit the gym this morning. Also, from what I read, macros have very little effect on a diet compared to caloric intake, but I thought I'd try the fat thing on the refeed anyway. I seem to be maintaining again, rather than losing fat. No point in being on a diet for that; I'll lower cals for a bit if I can. Have to hit a funeral this weekend in south Ga. Lots of eating and formal meals to attend; don't know if I can beg off or not.
 
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