Strategic Deconditioning (SD)

Discussion in 'Strength-Specific Training (SST)' started by sooty, Jul 20, 2006.

  1. sooty

    sooty New Member

    Hi, I am a speedskating athlete, i do alot of HST and SST. I read your webpage and forum as my bible.  It's great advice :eek:)
    I totally agree and use the Strategic Deconditioning (SD) in between my HST cycles. But what about my Strangth training cycles. Do i need to have SD in between my Strength cycles? If my goal is STRENGTH not size in this period, isn't it crazy to deliberatly take time off to loose strength???  Or does the body, muscles and tendons just need a rest to maintain the quality in the training over many months?  (I'm confused as to what is best)  Hope i get a lot of replies and opinion...    to me it's quite a technical question i think.
    Have good training guys, c u, Sooty  (Denmark)
     
  2. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    No SD. Just follow strength training routine procedures. There is a period of deload, but not SD. You just said it yourself, that's crazy [​IMG]

    Regards,
    -JV
     
  3. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (jvroig @ Jul. 20 2006,23:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No SD. Just follow strength training routine procedures. There is a period of deload, but not SD. You just said it yourself, that's crazy  [​IMG]

    Regards,
    -JV</div>
    Really ? I'm strictly training for strength also, and am just about to complete a 8 week cycle on 7/21 (today). I planned to do a 7 day SD before starting up another cycle. I'm not an athlete like the initial poster to this thread, but just have strength goals I want to meet. If I have more hypertrophy that's good, but I'm more focused on strength. I guess I assumed that if your body can become tough and conditioned, it can not only become resistant to hypertrophy, but resistant to strength increase as well.
     
  4. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    ...repeat post...
     
  5. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Taking a break is more for joint/cns/mental recovery

    and it can be useful occasionally
     
  6. sooty

    sooty New Member

    Hi, thanks for the replies. So, no SD i just keep piling the weights on week after week? (I do 2 weeks 12 reps, 2 weeks 8 reps, 2 weeks 5 reps and 2 weeks neg's - i do this because i want a little hypertrophy, and a little muscular endurance.. for sport you know) so i just start the cycle again???

    what if i take a mini SD break? like 5 days or 4 days? better? or is it really best just to keep on going through the cycles no beraks.
     
  7. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (sooty @ Jul. 21 2006,16:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hi, thanks for the replies.  So, no SD i just keep piling the weights on week after week?  (I do 2 weeks 12 reps, 2 weeks 8 reps, 2 weeks 5 reps and 2 weeks neg's - i do this because i want a little hypertrophy, and a little muscular endurance..   for sport you know)  so i just start the cycle again???

    what if i take a mini SD break?  like 5 days or 4 days?  better?   or is it really best just to keep on going through the cycles no beraks.</div>
    I vote a 7 day break. You're doing a lot of heavy work there (5 reps then negs). That's 4 weeks of joint busting low reps
     
  8. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Well, if you are after strength more so than getting big, then you are better off with strength training routines, not hypertrophy-specific routines.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess I assumed that if your body can become tough and conditioned, it can not only become resistant to hypertrophy, but resistant to strength increase as well.</div>
    Strength gains aren't just from muscle CSA, which is why strength gains can continue despite not adding an ounce more of muscle. Frequent SD can hurt instead of help your &quot;quest for strength&quot;.
     
  9. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    ya, but the occasional time off is good for the joints n tendons

    it a balancing act
     
  10. sooty

    sooty New Member

    So, now i got 2 people advising me different things? (one who says do SD, and one who says no SD, hmmm?) i need a third opinion to help me out. (but to be honest i get it about not taking SD, so i continue to build strength without loss. (and if i have no joint problems or injuries then i guessi can go ahead and train through) ... [​IMG]
    comments guys?
     
  11. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (sooty @ Jul. 22 2006,07:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So, now i got 2 people advising me different things?  (one who says do SD, and one who says no SD, hmmm?)  i need a third opinion to help me out.   (but to be honest i get it about not taking SD, so i continue to build strength without loss.  (and if i have no joint problems or injuries then i guessi can go ahead and train through)  ...  [​IMG]  
    comments guys?</div>
    I'm still taking a break after my cycle just for joint recuperation, and the fact that I'm easily overtrained. I'm pretty weak in the endurance area. If you don't have any joint problems and feel good, then go for it.
     
  12. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Take a break if you are burning out or your joints are hurting. Otherwise don't.
     
  13. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    There is no conflict, really [​IMG]

    Aaron is saying the occasional rest can be useful. That's true.

    What I'm saying is don't SD frequently - as in every 8 weeks as you would in a regular HST Cycle. &quot;Frequent&quot; and &quot;occasional&quot; are pretty different things.

    If you don't feel the need to, continue the strength routine. Don't SD just because it's been 8 weeks. And anyway, if you go through deloading, that can be enough timeout from super-heavy loads for your joints.

    Hope that clears it up.

    Regards,
    -JV
     
  14. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    I go as long as my body can handle it. On my current training cycles I have been going for eight weeks, but my wrist, elbow and shoulders are aching, and my performance is starting to drop off.

    So its a week, or two off.

    Sometimes it only takes 4 weeks before i need a break, sometimes twelve. It just varies.
     
  15. jvroig

    jvroig Super Moderator

    Don't mean to hijack this thread, just a little question I have for Aaron since he visits this thread often.

    Aaron, who's the strongest guy in the planet right now? I don't know what strongman contest determines that, but I know you do.

    I bet the guy is rather fat (like those I see in strongman contests) instead of ripped... which is actually my question. How come it's not some ultra-ripped, muscularly obese guy like, say, Coleman who join strongman contests and are able to deadlift or bench 1000 pounds? How come it's the fat dudes who lift the most weight?

    What role does having fat, as opposed to being ultra-ripped with like only 5% bf, have in being able to perform those incredbile strength feats?

    Is it possible for someone to remain ultra-ripped, yet outlift those strongmen?
     
  16. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Sooty

    My honest opinion sides with both Aaron and JV, SD is for recuperation purpooses, rest necessary for hurting joints and/or overtraining or RBE (in this case over time).

    But one must be sensible, because you need the strength training, you'll get a hypertrophic side effect [​IMG], which is the nice thing, however as you point out youget easily overtarined, ther I'd SD minimally or at least deload (lighter weights, higher reps) so that you can recuperate!

    Hope this helps.

    Now to JV - a rather interesting question and rightly so...I have also noticed, but those people's diets are way different I think to body builders...also the training is different a strength is neural rather than simply muscular...I guess this is not a very scientific way oif getting there...but my way neverteheless! [​IMG]
     
  17. sooty

    sooty New Member

    Hi, thanks for the &quot;expert answers&quot;. it's very clear to me now. I shal SD in the HST phases, and no SD in the strength phases unless i feel problems are coming. (It's not me who get's easliy overtrained, it was &quot;stevejones&quot;) but i will also keep to the 12 rep, 8 rep, 5 rep, neg's 2 weeks each cycles... cos then i get HST combines with strength... and thst's what i need for the sport... i don't go through so many cycles each year, only in the winter is the focus on HST and Strength, so i go through 2 cycles of HST (Oct-Jan) and then 2(or3) cycles of Strength and stabilization training(Jan to April), then it's april, and i have to skate more so i only train Strangth once per week for maintainance until october again. But it is vitally important to me to get the maxiumum strength (plus some size) gains during this winter period (and not loose it through the summer skating months) (it's semi-pro inline speedskating, not ice) so i wanna get the maximum benefits possible in the shortest time. So many thanks for the advice. I really feel confident that i can go forarwd with your advice. cu
     
  18. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So many thanks for the advice. I really feel confident that i can go forarwd with your advice.</div>

    This is what we do around here! Greatest site in the world! We just help each other! [​IMG]
     
  19. sooty

    sooty New Member

    yeah i have to agree with that, i have learnt sooo much just by reading the forum, and the HST and SST websites. It's cool. cu.
    I'll be back ;)
     
  20. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (jvroig @ Jul. 23 2006,23:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Aaron, who's the strongest guy in the planet right now? I don't know what strongman contest determines that, but I know you do.</div>
    Depends...

    do you mean powerlifting (multiple feds), strongman (multiple feds) or olympic lifting?

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I bet the guy is rather fat (like those I see in strongman contests) instead of ripped... which is actually my question. How come it's not some ultra-ripped, muscularly obese guy like, say, Coleman who join strongman contests and are able to deadlift or bench 1000 pounds? How come it's the fat dudes who lift the most weight?   What role does having fat, as opposed to being ultra-ripped with like only 5% bf, have in being able to perform those incredbile strength feats?  
    Is it possible for someone to remain ultra-ripped, yet outlift those strongmen?</div>

    If you take the Worlds strongest man, the current champion is ripped.  But WSM is strength endurance, not absolute strength so excess fat will not aid them directly.  If you take something like the Arnold strongmna competition, it favours absolute strength, so fatter people succeed there.

    In powerlifting/oly, at least at the higher levels, lighter weight classes are generally quite muscular, not bbr muscular, but muscular, they are usually quite short as well.  once you get into the bigger weight classes ~275lb + then people start getting fatter, as there is no reason to minimise mass.  Absolute strength will favour the fat as it provides leverage advantage, especially in movements taht involve holding a weight on your back (squat) or overhead (snatch/clean and jerk).  In powerlifting being fat is usually advantageous in squat and bench, but usually it mucks up deadlifts.   Being thick as hell from muscle can be just as good, but unlikely for most people unless they are on massive volumes of drugs.

    If the person is drugged, then its entirely possible to maintain an extreemly low BF and remain competitive.  In 'natural' competitions, lifters are fatter, and when they drop weight their performance starts to suffer

    Someone like Ronnie would do extremely well at powerlifting, as he already performes these movmenets, however risking a huge amount of money to lift in a meet that nets you $0.00 is something different.

    Ronnie could also probably do semi-ok in strongman, but he is probably a little old to pick up the movments and do well at it.  Hes also short so that doesnt help him.  having excess muscle may not do him any advantages in the more endurance focussed events.

    Olympic lifting ronnie could not perform at the highest level, its an extremely technical sport that requires years upon years of obsessive lifting to attain the technical parameters required.
     

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