The Essential Borge Fagerli (Blade)

Quad,

I looked at the deadlift extreme routine you posted. Is there anywhere on the site where a % RM is given? How do you know what percent of your max to start with?
 
I find this stuff pretty fascinating.  I would credit Dan Moore for being the first to really get into exploring some of these issues based on hypertrophy research, i.e. abandoning conventional set/rep approaches in favor of something truly more hypertrophy-specific.

At Dan's board, there was a conversation between a few of the regulars about this subject, which I still sort of remember.  I think it was Ron Sowers (NWLifter, awesome/bright guy) who was the first to say something to the effect of "what if we used max-stim and turned it on its head, using it to maximize the density of training?"  Or something to that effect.

I think a few different versions of this idea arose, with Blade clearly doing the most legwork.  I have actually experimented with it myself, and came up with a "dumber" version that I actually found easier to use, that went something like this.

If we're relating this to RPE, the idea is to stop any particular set or mini-set at maybe an ~8 or 9, tops.  Meaning we always have at least one rep in the tank.  In practice, this means terminating a set when one rep is noticeably slower than the previous rep, or some spontaneous change in form has happened that we can't control (more an issue on squats and deads).

And with that in mind, I basically used the rest periods in DC training and would do something like this:

"Activation" set with a ~10-12 RM.  This might be 7-10 reps or thereabouts.

~12-15 deep breaths, or ~30-45 seconds.  Do the same as above - you might get ~4-5 reps.

~12-15 more deep breaths, repeat until you get to your total intended rep count.  A good rule of thumb I found was ~2 x (RM).  E.g. 20 total reps with a 10 rep max, 25 total reps with a 12 rep max, 15 total reps with an 8 rep max.  That sort of thing.

I liked longer rests like this vs. shorter rests due to the fact that it can become really difficult to predict drops in performance with really short rests, at least in my experience.

You'll also notice that a roundabout way of knowing whether you're at "full" activation is if all your subsequent sets fall within that ~5 rep range or less range, which in my experimentation they always did (and I usually only got 4-5 reps on the first mini-set, and more like 2-3 reps on sets after that).

Now, I'm not trying to compete with Blade's myoreps here, but for a poor man's version of the basic concept (i.e. maximizing training density with a medium-heavy weight while proactively avoiding failure at every step of the process), I think it's a good way to know what this "feels" like, for anyone interested.

I'll give an example of what this looks like with, say, chins...

Say you're able to do 10 strict chins with bodyweight.  Okay, cool.  We'll double that 10 RM to arrive at a rep goal of ~20 reps.

So, we start off, and perform our chins strictly until we get to ~7 or 8 reps, at which point we notice a sudden change in rep speed, i.e. things start to really get grindy.  This is about an ~8 on the RPE scale.

We take 12 deep breaths (maybe 30 seconds rest), then continue.  Now we get another 5 reps, at which point we notice another sudden drop in rep speed (RPE ~8-9).  8 + 5 = 13.  So far, so good.

12 more deep breaths, and this time we get 3 reps using the same criteria.

Another 12, another 3.  8 + 5 + 3 + 3 = 19.  We probably don't really need another 12 deep breaths to get the last rep, so you rest as long as you need to know you'll get one more quality rep (maybe 15 seconds), then you're done.
 
One more note about the rest periods...

Based on people experimenting with this stuff, there appears quite a bit of difference between individuals in terms of how fast they recover between mini-sets.  My experience was that I did not recovery super quickly, and did better with DC training esque rests (the ~12-15 deep breath rule).

In reality, if you logic this out, the two main advantages of this form of training are:

* Getting to maximum fiber recruitment as quickly as possible, and then sustaining it throughout the duration of your prescribed amount of volume (i.e. total reps).
* Completing that volume of work as quickly as possible.

As such, to fulfill criterion #1, you'd want to make sure that your mini-sets after the activation set never exceeded ~5 reps (probably a ~6-7 RM), and maybe even as low as 3-4 reps (which would put you more truly at a ~5 RM using the RPE guidelines).  This guarantees full recruitment and "highest quality reps" for every single rep after the activation set is performed.

For some people, this might require shorter rest periods (~15 seconds), for others, possibly longer.  But the key is to stay within that sweet spot of full recruitment while continuing to perform work, but proactively avoiding pushing too hard on any particular mini-set.  The net result should fulfill both of the criteria above.
 
I'm wondering how to reconcile all this...

<div>
(Borge Fagerli @ Myo-reps - en Evolution and Revolution,Part 1)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Occlusion with a trykkmansjett [translation?] reduces circulation to the muscle, and the physiological response to oxygen shortage which occurs (hypoxia) is that we achieve the full fiber activation much faster. Thus, we can replicate this effect by training with the continuous span of muscles to exhaustion, even at light weights but still at least 50-60% load (most do 20-25 reps on this charge).</div>

<div>
(Bryan Haycock @ Fiber Types,Training and Hypertrophy)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When trying to grow muscle, it is worthless to try to adjust the program to &quot;stimulate&quot; or &quot;isolate&quot; any specific type of fiber. Recruitment patterns involved in lifting weights heavy enough to cause hypertrophy activate all fibers, both fast and slow.</div>

<div>
(Dan Moore @ Max-Stimulation,Inhibitory Signalling)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now that we’ve reviewed how the metabolic fatigue induced during repetitive contractions can cause a diminished response through the AMPK-AKT switching event, lets look into how the lactic acid burn and the pump can also affect it through increased acidosis, hypoxia and hyperosmolarity.</div>
 
<div>
(QuantumPositron @ Jul. 25 2009,10:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad,

I looked at the deadlift extreme routine you posted.  Is there anywhere on the site where a % RM is given?  How do you know what percent of your max to start with?</div>
You don't.
What I did was take the program's max lift (620) and find out what percent it was that brought it down to what I thought I could possibly acheive, which for me is 460, or 75%.
Each week I multiply all the numbers in the chart by .75 for my program. If I make it all the way, I'll be lifting 35 lbs. more than I was, and at 460, I can &quot;see&quot; 500 not far off.
You will notice that ALL the warmup sets are the same weight, so you don't have to recalculate every week.
I will be talking to Ricky this week by phone and getting more details for the auxiliary work that he doesn't say anything about. Whatever it is, what I'm doing is working and working well.

I first emailed him 3 weeks ago:
&quot;Basically, I do the program first after 5min of elliptical machine warmup, then move on to assistance exersizes:

1.) Leg sled 5 x 5, pyramiding up to max, then one pump set. Alternate weeks, or 3rd weeks, light squats x 8

2.) Stiff legged deads to floor from curl stand, 5x8 or 5 last set. Alternate weeks do heavy hyperextensions.

3.) Leg extensions 5x10. Occasionally replace with sissy squats.

4.) Power Shrugs, strapped and very heavy x 5-12.
I'm in week 12 and just hit 5lbs. short of my alltime max single on the schedule and feel like I may not make it to week 16. My workouts are just chest day, back day, leg day, and each rotation is about a week or a day less.
I have set this program to a 460 max by multiplying all numbers by .75 - my former max was 425.
I'm 212 lbs. 5'11&quot;, and 56 yrs old, gym age 5 years on, two off, 3 back on again.

Should I just stick it out as is, or make changes to the auxiliary exersizes?&quot;

As you may have seen, since that letter, I've done 3 new PR's and could have lifted more each time had I wanted to, but chose to trust the program instead.
Last workout was using MyoReps on the auxiliaries, and boyoboy...you will FEEL that! I'm not sure I should be doing them for legs during this PL program tho.
 
<div>
(abanger @ Jul. 26 2009,5:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm wondering how to reconcile all this...

<div>
(Borge Fargerli @ Myo-reps - en Evolution and Revolution,Part 1)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Occlusion with a trykkmansjett [translation?] reduces circulation to the muscle, and the physiological response to oxygen shortage which occurs (hypoxia) is that we achieve the full fiber activation much faster. Thus, we can replicate this effect by training with the continuous span of muscles to exhaustion, even at light weights but still at least 50-60% load (most do 20-25 reps on this charge).</div>
Allowing full activation with light loads and low volume.

<div>
(Bryan Haycock @ Fiber Types,Training and Hypertrophy)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When trying to grow muscle, it is worthless to try to adjust the program to &quot;stimulate&quot; or &quot;isolate&quot; any specific type of fiber. Recruitment patterns involved in lifting weights heavy enough to cause hypertrophy activate all fibers, both fast and slow.</div>
Using heavy enough loads, then full activation will happen on every rep anyway, but I doubt this happens to trained individuals during the 15s, which is why some guys skip them, too light.

<div>
(Dan Moore @ Max-Stimulation,Inhibitory Signalling)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now that we’ve reviewed how the metabolic fatigue induced during repetitive contractions can cause a diminished response through the AMPK-AKT switching event, lets look into how the lactic acid burn and the pump can also affect it through increased acidosis, hypoxia and hyperosmolarity.</div>

Too much fatigue can hinder activation, but Dan's theory and Borge's theory differ here.  Dan is trying to minimize fatigue and get adecent volume on with a heavy load.  Borge is using generally lighter loads, but using fatigue to make those loads more effective later on in the set with the myoreps.

I don't know which theory is more correct, but both systems allow a lifter to get in a lot of &quot;quality&quot; reps in a short amount of time.  SO even though the theories are different, the systems have some practical similarities.</div>
Hmm
 
I did my first myo-reps squat session today, and it is by far the hardest thing I've experienced yet, short of a short stint of Smolov
smile.gif


did 275x7+3+3+2+2 using 30-40secs rest
ran out of camera memory for the last 2 mini-sets, but the last double was hell!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBn4UPD85cc

It reminds me of doing sprint intervals or running 400m...
My quads, upper hammies and glutes are torched today!
anyway I find longer rest periods of 30-40secs work better for moves like squats and GMs. I don't lengthen the rest periods each mini-set, I keep a static 30-40secs

First stop is 275x15, which would mean I will be able to powerclean that ammount with a high catch, then we will see if I can get up to 335x12 using Myo-reps, which would put my 1RM in the upper 400s, on my way to 500lbs. Which would be an all time PR by a huge margin, especially if I lean up under 180lbs by then
biggrin.gif


I'm one of those people that doesn't particularly like to do a lot of sets, takes me far too long to recover from it. Always been a 1-2 set kind of guy, so Myo-reps is a dream come true for me  
laugh.gif
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Using heavy enough loads, then full activation will happen on every rep anyway, but I doubt this happens to trained individuals during the 15s, which is why some guys skip them, too light.
</div>

What is generally considered &quot;heavy enough load&quot; for full activation in a trained individual?
MS begins with 75% of 10RM if I recall correctly. Is that considered heavy enough, and thus why it can aim to avoid fatigue as much as possible.

Ofcourse &quot;heavy enough load&quot; is always going to be relative.

So then is the advantage to MyoReps that its using fatigue and activation sets as a kind guarantee that yes you're getting full fiber activation.
 
Not the answer you asked for, but, according to &quot;Effects of Strength Training and Vascular Occlusion&quot;, by Laurentino G, et al. (Int J Sports Med. 2008 Jan 22) total occlusion is achieved at 60% of 1RM. This is usable for MyoReps in the activation set. Use continous-tension non-lockout reps to keep the muscle occluded.

I do not have a % for full recruitment from the start. Sorry.
 
Nice work Colin. Now all you need is some real music...
rock.gif

I can see how squats would be a real beeyatch for this, as are SLDL's.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Should I just stick it out as is, or make changes to the auxiliary exersizes?</div>

This is the kind of question that makes me agonize over what I really know.

I'll start out by saying that we need to understand you are doing SST, not HST.  I have been reading periodization books written by the highest regarded authors in the field.  A consistent theme is that in periodization volume and or intensity need to be oscillated frequently to make continual progress.  I know this is not a periodized program and you may be thinking &quot;WTH Quantum, this isn't a periodized program and I don't much about that stuff anyway.&quot;  And my response is: &quot;The reason you may be stalling is that you are not periodizing.&quot;  I think HST and MS are great ideas written by well educated men, but the Olympic training team does not use MS or HST - they use periodization for strength training and strength is what your program is all about.  That being said I think you should keep the program but reduce the volume on the auxilliary lifts by 60% for 1 - 2 weeks.  The reasoning is that, in periodization speak, you are accumulating fatigue.  This is solved by reducing intensity and or volume thus giving the body time to recuperate.  You may then increase the volume of the auxilliary lifts again.

From what I have read stalling is not a sign the deadlift regimen is failing.  Its a possible sign that you are entering the first steps of overtraining, which is called overreaching.  In strength periodization this can be used strategically because once one does a partial deload after overreaching strength and recuperative ability rebound to a new high.

I have considered your notion of changing the auxiliary lifts altogether.  I checked them against WestSide, which trains elite powerlifters.  They change auxilliary lifts often and do so successfully.  I will go ahead and say this tactic should be kept in your back pocket until after a partial deload.  My reasoning is that if you are indeed overreaching then keeping the volume the same with new lifts will just make it worse because you will be spending more time in a fatigued state.

If your deadlift begins to decline then you have met the &quot;written&quot; criteria for overreaching and a deload is, in my opinion, your best option.
 
QP: interesting thoughts to consider when I talk to Ricky. When I wrote that, I felt my limits coming on: since then have done 3 new PR's and expect to blow on by another tomorrow - I'm only doing legs once a week as is, and I KNOW I'm not doing HST, didn't say I was - but I've been shooting a bit in the dark on the auxiliaries.
Interestingly enough, when I looked up PL routines, many are doing the same things I chose. What I'm the most unsure about is my choice of alternating two exersizes each week, for instance, the SLDL's one week and hypers the next. This doesn't allow for periodization per se, since I'm hitting the muscle differently each week (after the lift program) and perhaps not optimally strengthening them.
SLDL's / hypers
Extensions / squats
leg sled / sissy squats
occasional leg curls that I don't put much faith in.

edit: I'm wondering if this chronic fatigue I seem to have but won't show on a blood test is related to hidden fatigue? I mean, I don't feel overtrained or even overreached (BUT, may with myo's very soon!) but I can't seem to get thru an 8 hour workday anymore. But this started before the strength cycle, long ago. I take multi's for BBuilders, minerals, whey, fish oil, and eat well. Makes no sense to me.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jul. 28 2009,7:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">edit: I'm wondering if this chronic fatigue I seem to have but won't show on a blood test is related to hidden fatigue? I mean, I don't feel overtrained or even overreached (BUT, may with myo's very soon!) but I can't seem to get thru an 8 hour workday anymore. But this started before the strength cycle, long ago. I take multi's for BBuilders, minerals, whey, fish oil, and eat well. Makes no sense to me.</div>
Hey quad, I know we are stepping out of topic here but have you ever considered Sleep Apnea can be the cause of your fatigue. It matches your description. Basically it is a breathing disorder that happens during sleep and renders your sleep-time inefficient. Usually makes you sleepy/tired during the day even if you have slept long enough.
 
I've looked at the links in the first post, but I wouldn't be able to explain how Myo-reps is different than traditional rest-pause training, as they seem to go awfully close to failure even in the first set?
If anyone could explain the difference, I'd be grateful.
 
<div>
(Michel @ Jul. 28 2009,11:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've looked at the links in the first post, but I wouldn't be able to explain how Myo-reps is different than traditional rest-pause training, as they seem to go awfully close to failure even in the first set?
If anyone could explain the difference, I'd be grateful.</div>

<div>
(Borge Fagerli @ Myo-reps - en Evolution and Revolution,Part 1)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Myo-reps and DC / rest-pause?

Those who have read about the rest-pause method, in among other things, the highly efficient DC-program will likely see great similarities with the Myo-reps, but there are some critical differences that you've already seen and will soon see.  One is that we also want to check exhaustion than to use it as a goal in itself to increase the total training volume and frequency, key variables for an optimal training effect.  In part 2 you will be presented a unique way to control the amount of training during the training session so that you can find the right balance between rest and stimulation for optimal effect!</div>
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> since then have done 3 new PR's and expect to blow on by another tomorrow</div>

Oh. Then the program is working great obviously.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This doesn't allow for periodization per se</div>

The program's volume declines as intensity increases.  Also the loads are being altered in a wave-like fashion.  There's a wee bit of periodization in there already.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm wondering if this chronic fatigue I seem to have but won't show on a blood test is related to hidden fatigue?</div>

A strength coach once commented that fatigue can mask fitness.  In other words exhaustion from intense exercise can make one appear less fit on fitness measurements like 40yd dash, 1RM of a lift, etc.  To qualify for overreaching one needs to see an increasing decrement in performance that reaches to around 10-15% of an estimated max performance.  Fatigue is a general concept that does not refer to any specific biological phenomena however one can measure cortisol and testosterone levels as well as creatine kinase levels in the blood to examine the state of an athlete.  If these or other biological markers exceed normal values than it is concluded that the athlete is in need of a less demanding training regimen or complete time off.  The word overtraining in periodization-speak refers to a prolonged deterioration of athletic performance that can last several weeks to over a year.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jul. 28 2009,11:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">edit: I'm wondering if this chronic fatigue I seem to have but won't show on a blood test is related to hidden fatigue? I mean, I don't feel overtrained or even overreached (BUT, may with myo's very soon!) but I can't seem to get thru an 8 hour workday anymore. But this started before the strength cycle, long ago. I take multi's for BBuilders, minerals, whey, fish oil, and eat well. Makes no sense to me.</div>
could be the age factor quadman,im 51 and similar to you i find i get fatigued alot more, once im in the gym i get what i need to do done,but in general always feel tired.
also as electric says it could be sleep based,dont know about apnea,but always remember older people saying they needed less sleep than when they was younger,maybe its because they weren't sleeping well,i know sometimes i toss and turn,and wake up a few times during the night,i also find getting up earlier harder nowadays,but it never used to bother me before.
 
hello.

Myo-reps is a great idea.

A possible variation on the basic concept may be mixing it with wave loading.
wave loading is a powerlifting technique derived from weightlifting; is it possible to lift more weight due to a neural effect that make feel the weight lighter.

you have to do cluster sets of reps with a buffer, for example :

5 - 3 - 1 (first wave) + 5 - 3 - 1 (second wave)

wave loading works ONLY if you have some buffer (1/2 reps)

if you want more information, there's a great article &quot;wave loading manifesto&quot; from ian king

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_on....nifesto

so:

activation set +
wave1 +
wave2

example (the weight are indicative):

bench 10 reps (80 Kg) +
5 reps (82,5 kg) + 3 reps (85) + 1 rep (90 kg) +
5 reps (85 kg) + 3 reps (87,5) + 2 rep (90) kg

the rep with 90 kg, make the following cluster of 5 reps lighter...so the neural effect from wave1, drives wave2; you can use more weight in the wave2.

of course, if you can't do 5 reps, you can do 4 reps (82,5)+2reps (85)+1rep (87,5)..
or simply do the two waves with the same weights
5 (82,5)+3(85)+1(90) +
5 (82,5)+3(85)+1(90)...


what do you think about this crazy idea?
smile.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top