The Vegetarian Poll
- Thread starter Ruthenian
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nipponbiki
New Member
To all the sincere vegetarians:
I never could understand the point of becoming vegetarian to begin with? Could any of you guys explain that to me? This is what I do understand, but doesn't make sense.
Not wanting to eat living things - well, so are plants. If we didn't want to eat living things, then we are pretty fucked. Especially the dudes that think it's OK to eat dairy and eggs, seems very contradicting and defeats the purpose if this is the reason.
Not wanting to ingest hormones and antibiotics - well, that is not a problem with eating meat per se. That is a problem with the modern farming industry and there are ways to eat meat that have not been processed in this way.
General health - Using this as a reason makes meat sound like a toxin.
Please understand that I am not attacking vegetarians. What I am asking for is some logical reasoning to do this, and not emotional crap like animals are just too cute to eat.
I never could understand the point of becoming vegetarian to begin with? Could any of you guys explain that to me? This is what I do understand, but doesn't make sense.
Not wanting to eat living things - well, so are plants. If we didn't want to eat living things, then we are pretty fucked. Especially the dudes that think it's OK to eat dairy and eggs, seems very contradicting and defeats the purpose if this is the reason.
Not wanting to ingest hormones and antibiotics - well, that is not a problem with eating meat per se. That is a problem with the modern farming industry and there are ways to eat meat that have not been processed in this way.
General health - Using this as a reason makes meat sound like a toxin.
Please understand that I am not attacking vegetarians. What I am asking for is some logical reasoning to do this, and not emotional crap like animals are just too cute to eat.
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(drpierredebs @ Feb. 01 2007,05:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">cats get everything from meat, actually by eating whole animals, they need no other food groups.
If you feed a tiger in a zoo only meat, they usually get sick, don´t breed and die.
If you give them a whole animal, they prosper.
Humans need plant and non-plant food substances.</div>
and....
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As close as we are genetically to gorillas, there is a world of difference in our guts and our metabolism.</div>
We are genetically closer to primates, as opposed to cats.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You can't compare monkeys, chimps and gorilla's to humans. Just like you can't expect the same results form an experiment on rats to happen with humans. It just isn't going to happen. Like it or not humans were "created" differently than apes. </div>
Someone is gonna bring the animal kingdom into a debate, whether or not the vegatarian lifestyle is acceptable, wouldnt it be a good idea to use examples that come close to the homo sapian, genetically speaking?
(drpierredebs @ Feb. 01 2007,05:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">cats get everything from meat, actually by eating whole animals, they need no other food groups.
If you feed a tiger in a zoo only meat, they usually get sick, don´t breed and die.
If you give them a whole animal, they prosper.
Humans need plant and non-plant food substances.</div>
and....
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As close as we are genetically to gorillas, there is a world of difference in our guts and our metabolism.</div>
We are genetically closer to primates, as opposed to cats.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You can't compare monkeys, chimps and gorilla's to humans. Just like you can't expect the same results form an experiment on rats to happen with humans. It just isn't going to happen. Like it or not humans were "created" differently than apes. </div>
Someone is gonna bring the animal kingdom into a debate, whether or not the vegatarian lifestyle is acceptable, wouldnt it be a good idea to use examples that come close to the homo sapian, genetically speaking?
What would be nice is if people would stick to actual science here instead of opinion or statements with no backing. I don't see why this is even an issue. Being vegetarian is a religious or philosophical decision, not a scientific or health based issue. So...
And sure, you can get big on a vegetarian diet. Bill Pearl is a vegatarian, though he got huge before he decided to go that route, still he has managed to maintain his size as he got older on that diet, so it's not going to make your muscles wither away as long as you pay attention to your diet... but still, the only reason to go into that lifestyle is due to beliefs, so I don't know why some of you guys are trying to "prove" that the human is meant to be a vegetarian animal. Clearly we would not be able to live off of meat if we weren't designed to include meat in our diet.
And sure, you can get big on a vegetarian diet. Bill Pearl is a vegatarian, though he got huge before he decided to go that route, still he has managed to maintain his size as he got older on that diet, so it's not going to make your muscles wither away as long as you pay attention to your diet... but still, the only reason to go into that lifestyle is due to beliefs, so I don't know why some of you guys are trying to "prove" that the human is meant to be a vegetarian animal. Clearly we would not be able to live off of meat if we weren't designed to include meat in our diet.
ChrisHouston
New Member
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(nipponbiki @ Feb. 03 2007,07:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not wanting to eat living things - well, so are plants. If we didn't want to eat living things, then we are pretty fucked. Especially the dudes that think it's OK to eat dairy and eggs, seems very contradicting and defeats the purpose if this is the reason.</div>
It's very simple to be a vegetarian: Don't kill animals in order to eat. That's all. You don't have to go into any deeper philosophy than that.
Since dairy and eggs don't require animals to be killed, there's no contradiction.
If you can't tell the difference between a plant and an animal, you've got much bigger problems than choosing what to have for supper.
(nipponbiki @ Feb. 03 2007,07:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not wanting to eat living things - well, so are plants. If we didn't want to eat living things, then we are pretty fucked. Especially the dudes that think it's OK to eat dairy and eggs, seems very contradicting and defeats the purpose if this is the reason.</div>
It's very simple to be a vegetarian: Don't kill animals in order to eat. That's all. You don't have to go into any deeper philosophy than that.
Since dairy and eggs don't require animals to be killed, there's no contradiction.
If you can't tell the difference between a plant and an animal, you've got much bigger problems than choosing what to have for supper.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What would be nice is if people would stick to actual science here instead of opinion or statements with no backing. I don't see why this is even an issue. Being vegetarian is a religious or philosophical decision, not a scientific or health based issue. So...
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I agree that we're getting into justification-territory here, and as a vegetarian, I see no need to justify why I eat the way I do, nor do I see any need for the onmis on the forum to do the same. Ultimately, it's a choice, a very personal one. However, there are so who do feel (with sound scientific evidence) that a vegetarian diet (or at least one that is mostly so, such as the Mediterranean diet) is in fact healthier than one laden with animal protein, especially when derived from red meat. This is the case even where meat hasn't been laced with antibiotics, as has been found in studies looking at rural Italians.
Just to keep the discussion going, though (hey, we're up to three pages!!!), I would add environmental/ecological issues as important forces for some who adhere to a vegan or vegetarian diet. For the amount of water, grain, and petroleum-based fuels it takes to produce a pound of beef, one could hydrate, bathe, feed, and transport a family of four for a week. Not to mention all the clear-cutting it takes to create new pasture for those loveable steers.
Hoo boy- I better duck after that.... But just sayin', ya know?
</div>
I agree that we're getting into justification-territory here, and as a vegetarian, I see no need to justify why I eat the way I do, nor do I see any need for the onmis on the forum to do the same. Ultimately, it's a choice, a very personal one. However, there are so who do feel (with sound scientific evidence) that a vegetarian diet (or at least one that is mostly so, such as the Mediterranean diet) is in fact healthier than one laden with animal protein, especially when derived from red meat. This is the case even where meat hasn't been laced with antibiotics, as has been found in studies looking at rural Italians.
Just to keep the discussion going, though (hey, we're up to three pages!!!), I would add environmental/ecological issues as important forces for some who adhere to a vegan or vegetarian diet. For the amount of water, grain, and petroleum-based fuels it takes to produce a pound of beef, one could hydrate, bathe, feed, and transport a family of four for a week. Not to mention all the clear-cutting it takes to create new pasture for those loveable steers.
Hoo boy- I better duck after that.... But just sayin', ya know?
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">General health - Using this as a reason makes meat sound like a toxin. </div>
Well, actually, everything is a toxin, when you come right down to it, especially when it's taken/eaten to excess. The first drug they teach you about in basic pharmacology is.... water!!! Too bad that poor woman who died in the water drinking contest a month or so ago didn't know that you can actually OD on it. (Although if I remember correctly, she didn't die from H2O toxicity, but from a ruptured bladder- the point of the contest was to see how much you could drink without eliminating it.
But, nippon, you do raise an excellent point. If you're gonna eat meat (and I'm fine with that, BTW- your business), then go organic, free-range, antibiotic-free, and non-GMO-grain fed as much as possible. Hard to find in some places, and comparatively more expensive, but worth it in the long run. People who eat over-the-counter meat (chicken, in particular) are exposed to large amounts of gentamycin (yes, genta) and tetracycline, which are added to poultry feed to promote growth and reduce infections in the coops. Alas, alas, it also probably contributes to the increasing rates of antibiotic resistance in the community- in other words, when you have an infection that could be treated by an antibiotic, the usual one of choice won't work because of the proliferation of resistant bacteria due to ubiquitous exposure in the food chain. It's a controversial topic, but as an epidemiologist, I'm convinced, as are virtually all of my colleagues.
That's another thread, I guess, but it needs to said.
Well, actually, everything is a toxin, when you come right down to it, especially when it's taken/eaten to excess. The first drug they teach you about in basic pharmacology is.... water!!! Too bad that poor woman who died in the water drinking contest a month or so ago didn't know that you can actually OD on it. (Although if I remember correctly, she didn't die from H2O toxicity, but from a ruptured bladder- the point of the contest was to see how much you could drink without eliminating it.
But, nippon, you do raise an excellent point. If you're gonna eat meat (and I'm fine with that, BTW- your business), then go organic, free-range, antibiotic-free, and non-GMO-grain fed as much as possible. Hard to find in some places, and comparatively more expensive, but worth it in the long run. People who eat over-the-counter meat (chicken, in particular) are exposed to large amounts of gentamycin (yes, genta) and tetracycline, which are added to poultry feed to promote growth and reduce infections in the coops. Alas, alas, it also probably contributes to the increasing rates of antibiotic resistance in the community- in other words, when you have an infection that could be treated by an antibiotic, the usual one of choice won't work because of the proliferation of resistant bacteria due to ubiquitous exposure in the food chain. It's a controversial topic, but as an epidemiologist, I'm convinced, as are virtually all of my colleagues.
That's another thread, I guess, but it needs to said.
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
Jake, why would you encourage free range livestock when you decry the clear-cutting of forests for pasture land?
BTW, you do know that there is more acreage of forest land now in the US than when Europeans came over, don't you?
BTW, you do know that there is more acreage of forest land now in the US than when Europeans came over, don't you?
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For the amount of water, grain, and petroleum-based fuels it takes to produce a pound of beef, one could hydrate, bathe, feed, and transport a family of four for a week. </div>
Fortunately, we have the resources to do both, and have lots left over!!
Fortunately, we have the resources to do both, and have lots left over!!
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(Jake @ Feb. 03 2007,11:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to keep the discussion going, though (hey, we're up to three pages!!!), I would add environmental/ecological issues as important forces for some who adhere to a vegan or vegetarian diet.
Hoo boy- I better duck after that.... But just sayin', ya know?
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No need to duck IMO.
However, growing up on a farm like I did, I'm familiar with livestock. Trust me on this, cow farts release a lot of greenhouse gasses. As many as possible (cows, not farts) should be eaten to save the environment.
Want to save a tree? Eat a beaver.
(Jake @ Feb. 03 2007,11:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to keep the discussion going, though (hey, we're up to three pages!!!), I would add environmental/ecological issues as important forces for some who adhere to a vegan or vegetarian diet.
Hoo boy- I better duck after that.... But just sayin', ya know?
No need to duck IMO.
However, growing up on a farm like I did, I'm familiar with livestock. Trust me on this, cow farts release a lot of greenhouse gasses. As many as possible (cows, not farts) should be eaten to save the environment.
Want to save a tree? Eat a beaver.
bluejacket
New Member
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(etothepii @ Feb. 03 2007,16:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, you do know that there is more acreage of forest land now in the US than when Europeans came over, don't you?</div>
not sure about that one. where are you getting the info about that? most of the reading ive come across talks about how before the 1st "europeans" came a squirrel could climb a tree on the east coast and not have to touch ground again until he got to the mississippi. now those are just stories but probably not too far off. where have the millions and millions of acres of forest that has been cut, planted/built over thru the centuries been replanted?
not that this has anything to do with being a vegan.
if your interested
http://www.safnet.org/policyandpress/psst/Loss_of_forest_land.pdf
(etothepii @ Feb. 03 2007,16:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, you do know that there is more acreage of forest land now in the US than when Europeans came over, don't you?</div>
not sure about that one. where are you getting the info about that? most of the reading ive come across talks about how before the 1st "europeans" came a squirrel could climb a tree on the east coast and not have to touch ground again until he got to the mississippi. now those are just stories but probably not too far off. where have the millions and millions of acres of forest that has been cut, planted/built over thru the centuries been replanted?
not that this has anything to do with being a vegan.
if your interested
http://www.safnet.org/policyandpress/psst/Loss_of_forest_land.pdf
I don't really know how helpful it is for this to have turned into a veggies vs. omnies debate, so I have deleted my post on comparative anatomy. If you guys want to keep it up, maybe I will jump back in. Like Jake says, it is a choice that we don't really need to justify -- I happen to think that it is the more ethical and healthy one, but obviously others disagree.
However, I have seen a couple of comments along the lines of: "since we can eat meat, we were obviously intended to". I am not going to argue over whether humans were originally vegetarians, or not, but this does not make the case for eating meat. No one would argue that cows are intended to eat meat, yet, until recently, feedlots were feeding them the processeed remains of other cows and apparently they could digest it. Infortunately, this bizarre practice resulted in an outbreak of human forms of spongiform encephalitis ("Mad Cow" disease).
However, I have seen a couple of comments along the lines of: "since we can eat meat, we were obviously intended to". I am not going to argue over whether humans were originally vegetarians, or not, but this does not make the case for eating meat. No one would argue that cows are intended to eat meat, yet, until recently, feedlots were feeding them the processeed remains of other cows and apparently they could digest it. Infortunately, this bizarre practice resulted in an outbreak of human forms of spongiform encephalitis ("Mad Cow" disease).
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Jake, why would you encourage free range livestock when you decry the clear-cutting of forests for pasture land?</div>
Actually, I don't encourage anyone to eat meat, free-range or otherwise. But clear cutting is happening to support the development of non-free range livestock farming. It's all about factory farming, not responsible farming.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, you do know that there is more acreage of forest land now in the US than when Europeans came over, don't you? </div>
I have no idea where you got that from, but I have a really hard time believing that, given the extent of (sub)urban sprawl. Here in the Northeast US, farm after farm, and forest after forest, have given way to McMansions and the SUVs that go with them. I can't imagine that the same thing hasn't hap[\ppened in other parts (maybe not all,but many or even most) of the US.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fortunately, we have the resources to do both, and have lots left over!!</div>
Would that were true, at least in terms of petroleum- those resources are limited indeed. And they are completely non-renewable.
Actually, I don't encourage anyone to eat meat, free-range or otherwise. But clear cutting is happening to support the development of non-free range livestock farming. It's all about factory farming, not responsible farming.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW, you do know that there is more acreage of forest land now in the US than when Europeans came over, don't you? </div>
I have no idea where you got that from, but I have a really hard time believing that, given the extent of (sub)urban sprawl. Here in the Northeast US, farm after farm, and forest after forest, have given way to McMansions and the SUVs that go with them. I can't imagine that the same thing hasn't hap[\ppened in other parts (maybe not all,but many or even most) of the US.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fortunately, we have the resources to do both, and have lots left over!!</div>
Would that were true, at least in terms of petroleum- those resources are limited indeed. And they are completely non-renewable.
nipponbiki
New Member
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(ChrisHouston @ Feb. 03 2007,23:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's very simple to be a vegetarian: Don't kill animals in order to eat. That's all. You don't have to go into any deeper philosophy than that.</div>
Yeah, but what's the point? Like I said, the only thing that makes logical sense is because it is a living thing.
At any rate, I don't need sarcasm or insults.
I am not asking for justification, I am sincerely interested in the reasoning because I would like to understand it, even if I don't agree with it.
By the way, as to whether is natural or not, weren't humans originally hunters?
???
(ChrisHouston @ Feb. 03 2007,23:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's very simple to be a vegetarian: Don't kill animals in order to eat. That's all. You don't have to go into any deeper philosophy than that.</div>
Yeah, but what's the point? Like I said, the only thing that makes logical sense is because it is a living thing.
At any rate, I don't need sarcasm or insults.
I am not asking for justification, I am sincerely interested in the reasoning because I would like to understand it, even if I don't agree with it.
By the way, as to whether is natural or not, weren't humans originally hunters?
Hunter/Gatherer. Evolutional or Creational doctrine; same thing. So one would assume that we are ambivalent about our dietary needs, going by this.
As for the thread going beyond the poll, the poll is done. This is just a group of intelligent men discussing the outer parameters of logic and semantics over an issue. That's what I love about this forum. Even guys who get into a heated debate will be buds again next week. Sure beats the wasted space on You-Know-Who.com.
As for the thread going beyond the poll, the poll is done. This is just a group of intelligent men discussing the outer parameters of logic and semantics over an issue. That's what I love about this forum. Even guys who get into a heated debate will be buds again next week. Sure beats the wasted space on You-Know-Who.com.
Ruthenian, I wish you hadn't deleted your original post. If I offended you by making jokes, I do apologize. This is simply something that no one needs to justify...how or why they choose their nutrition.
I didn't see anything heated, just discussion. You have the same right to express yourself as us omnivores or carnivores.
I do an omnivorous bulk and a nearly pure carnivorous cut. When the vegs or scientific types that say "no studies support this" that I know question it or attack me, I feel no need to justify it to them...I know what works for me and it's within my ethical boundaries and beliefs. By the same token, you live and eat within your boundaries and beliefs, so they are a bit different...you have no need to justify them. If you wish to start polls out of curiosity, or discuss them then you should feel free to do so. Don't feel as if you should delete your posts just because others are of a different opinion.
Besides, every cow you don't eat is another steak for me.
I didn't see anything heated, just discussion. You have the same right to express yourself as us omnivores or carnivores.
I do an omnivorous bulk and a nearly pure carnivorous cut. When the vegs or scientific types that say "no studies support this" that I know question it or attack me, I feel no need to justify it to them...I know what works for me and it's within my ethical boundaries and beliefs. By the same token, you live and eat within your boundaries and beliefs, so they are a bit different...you have no need to justify them. If you wish to start polls out of curiosity, or discuss them then you should feel free to do so. Don't feel as if you should delete your posts just because others are of a different opinion.
Besides, every cow you don't eat is another steak for me.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ruthenian, I wish you hadn't deleted your original post. If I offended you by making jokes, I do apologize. This is simply something that no one needs to justify...how or why they choose their nutrition. </div>
No, no offense taken. I was addressing a comment specifically made by someone and after thinking it over, I just didn't feel it was helpful to continue debating. I like just about everybody on this board and I enjoy checking it nearly every day -- just didn't want to create a lot of animosity. However, it folks are just having fun with the debate, I'll jump back in, too!
The point being addressed was comparative anatomy of humans and "real" carnivores. The fact is that the GI tract is not proportionally the same on them. Carnivores have much higher stomach pH to deal with the meat and much shorter intestines, as not as much time is needed to absorb the nutrients after getting blasted in the stormach. Also, saliva of carnivores does not contain carbohydrate-digesting enzymes, as to herbivores (and humans). Same went for natural omnivores like bears and pigs. Here is the link: Herbivore, Omnivore, Carnivore comparative anatomy
I you support the theory of evolution (I will take an agnostic stand on that), what this suggest to me is that humans evolved largely as vegetarians. After all, they have no natural means to take down prey. It was only after the invention of tools (spears, etc) that they had the capacity to hunt in any meaningful fashion.
No, no offense taken. I was addressing a comment specifically made by someone and after thinking it over, I just didn't feel it was helpful to continue debating. I like just about everybody on this board and I enjoy checking it nearly every day -- just didn't want to create a lot of animosity. However, it folks are just having fun with the debate, I'll jump back in, too!
The point being addressed was comparative anatomy of humans and "real" carnivores. The fact is that the GI tract is not proportionally the same on them. Carnivores have much higher stomach pH to deal with the meat and much shorter intestines, as not as much time is needed to absorb the nutrients after getting blasted in the stormach. Also, saliva of carnivores does not contain carbohydrate-digesting enzymes, as to herbivores (and humans). Same went for natural omnivores like bears and pigs. Here is the link: Herbivore, Omnivore, Carnivore comparative anatomy
I you support the theory of evolution (I will take an agnostic stand on that), what this suggest to me is that humans evolved largely as vegetarians. After all, they have no natural means to take down prey. It was only after the invention of tools (spears, etc) that they had the capacity to hunt in any meaningful fashion.