Thinking Of Trying This...

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by NWlifter, May 7, 2017.

  1. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    I'm thinking of trying a cycle of HST kinda modified for my recovery issues. (I'll be 52 this week, and always had issues with recovery). I pretty much got out of training for like 8 years, got all porky and out of shape, then a year and a half ago started lifting again, doing cardio, and dropped over 30 lbs of fat in a few months, been doing cardio and training and such pretty much non stop since. Last Friday I got a stupid head cold, so taking my first week off in over 1.5 years, I thought it's a perfect time after a viral SD (lol) to maybe do something like this. Been pushing hard to regain, so now I'm in the mood for a more structured ramp up instead of just banging away.

    I see a lot of people like 1x15's, then 2x10's, then 3x5's, that setup looks logical to me, especially with the newer research about loads and hypertrophy. To keep reps more even (OCDish here!), I'm thinking 1x15, 2x8 (=16), and 3x5 (=15) so the rep totals are almost the same each block.

    Then, to keep recovery in line, I'm thinking of gradually reducing frequency with each block (saw some other posts on this where one person was advised to do 3x for 15's and 2x per week for heavier stuff), so I'm thinking 3x per week for 15's, 2x per week for 8's, then ABA BAB for 5's. To keep the workout totals the same, it would be 2 weeks of 15's , 6 workouts per muscle, 3 weeks of 2x per week, 6 workouts per muscle and 4 weeks of ABA BAB for 6 total workouts per muscle, then if going well, that can be extended.

    So, my thoughts (right now anyway), are this.

    First two weeks 1x15
    Sunday, Tuesday & Thursday

    Squats
    Standing Calves
    Bench Press
    OHP
    Rows
    Un. Pulldowns

    Next block 2x8
    3 weeks (2/3rds of body each workout, LegPush, PushPull, PullLegs)

    Sunday
    Squats
    Standing Calves
    Bench Press
    OHP

    Tuesday
    Bench Press
    OHP
    Rows
    Un. Pulldowns

    Thursday
    Rows
    Pulldowns
    Squats
    Standing Calves

    Last block 3x5
    4+ weeks if all going well ABA BAB (sun/tues/thur)

    A
    Bench
    OHP
    Stand Calves

    B
    Squats
    Rows
    Un. Pulldowns

    I know this might be sacrificing some summation from maximum frequency, but I know how my annoying body is and I'd never make it through 3x full body with 3x5 to even 'get' a summation effect ;)
    (direct arm work, I might toss in if I feel in the mood, which is weird for me as I have always done direct arm work in my routines)
     
  2. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Welcome back to HST, interesting set up you have, you will have to let us know how it goes as I to sometimes struggle with recovery seems to be a constant moving target once we get to late forties / early fifties!!

    Will you start a log to see if we can get a bit more traffic on this forum
     
  3. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    Thanks, I've been wanting to give HST a go, but being older and now my hardgainer recovery is even worse than it was years ago, I just knew I'd crash and burn, then thought maybe if I tweaked it a bit for recovery, I might still get some benefits even if I don't get the full 3x stuff at the end of it.

    I might do a log, I don't think little old me will draw any traffic lol, but I'll consider it for sure!
    I calculated my RM's last night for 5, 8 and 15, hopefully their close enough. Now I just have to finish shaking this stupid virus and get some good 'pre SD' recovery.
     
  4. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Recovery and age is, in my opinion, overrated. I work out 3-5 times per week, full body, DUP style and I am just about 72. I am more concerned about too many low rep, high weight reps than anything. Those can lead us older goats to injury. Currently I am doing 1 exercise per body part, 1 set each of 25, 15 and 10 reps with the same weight and about 15 seconds rest between sets. I switch up exercises every other workout. 3-4 weeks on and 1 week off. Seems to work best for me at this point in time.
     
  5. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    that's cool, wish I was like that! , I've always been a really poor recovery person, even in my 20's, I'd get nuked in a few weeks if I over did the training, now that I'm older, more stressed, less sleep, it's really an issue for me.
     
  6. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    I think rather than reducing frequency, and better option might be reducing volume. So reduce the draining impact of each workout rather than reducing the number of workouts.
     
  7. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    Bryan, whoa! Cool to see you on here, man long time!!
    Thanks for the info,
    What I was thinking was from those newer studies showing hypertrophy is similar with various loads, that as I increased the loads, I should increase the volume 'as the stimulus', but your thinking that just like original HST, merely increasing the loads at the higher frequency, is 'enough'?

    So just the basic framework like this routine, 2 weeks 1x15, 2 weeks 1x10, 2 weeks 1x5?
    I was thinking those new studies were showing that more volume was an increase in stimulation more than load since hypertrophy was pretty much equal between various loads. Or was that because they trained to failure and since this isn't to failure, maybe the heavy loads are an increase if not pushing each set to full activation?

    Sunday, Tuesday & Thursday

    Squats
    Standing Calves
    Bench Press
    OHP
    Rows
    Un. Pulldowns
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
  8. Renky

    Renky Member

    Here is what I have been doing (after taking 3 months off to re-calibrate);

    Mondays - Rep range of 20-25

    Wednesdays - Rep range of 12

    Fridays - Rep range of 6-8

    My workouts only last about 20 minutes and the exercises are rows, bench press, face pulls, tricep push downs, hammer curls and (only on Fridays) chin ups. I have come to the conclusion that for me it is better to just keep it simple.
     
  9. Renky

    Renky Member

    Can you paint a clearer picture of what you think this looks like Bryan?
     
  10. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    Thanks, yes it has been too long!

    Keep in mind that you're dealing with a moving target. If you find yourself unable to recover between workouts, you must either decrease frequency or decrease volume. My suggestion is to decrease volume because I think high frequency is more advantageous than volume (within reason). Higher frequency allows a more consistent anabolic stimulus.

    Progressive load is pretty much a must regardless of frequency. Again, this is in an attempt to mitigate the effects of the repeated bout effect. As you adapt to your training, each workout creates a weaker and shorter stimulus to grow. Increasing the load and or volume is how we try to counter balance the RBE.

    If you have been training a while, which you have, I would suggest hitting 30 total reps per workout for a given upper body muscle group. That would mean, 2 x 15, 3 x 10, and 6 x 5. If recovery becomes an issue, like we said above, start by reducing the number of sets and see how that goes. It is possible however that you will find that you respond better to reducing frequency and that's fine, but as a rule of thumb, I would start with volume first, then try frequency.

    "Stimulus" is a tricky word. There are several stimuli being produced with some overlap in effect. I do not believe that "fatigue" is the reason lighter weights taken to failure works as well as heavier weights not taken to failure. I believe it is the metabolic stress (similar to blood flow restriction effects) that is responsible for that observation. There is plenty of data showing "full activation" occurs before failure so it isn't failure per se that is important. Its the combined effect of most of the muscle working hard for a long enough time (time under load) under insufficient oxygen supply (i.e. anaerobic environment) that produces the stimulus most important under normal circumstances.
     
  11. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    Thanks for the detailed reply, much appreciated!

    Ah so keep volume (rep count) equal, but increase the loads, rather than increasing volume like I was setting up. That does make sense.
    And yes, I have very poor recovery, always have, 6x5 3x per week would probably put me in the local hospital ;)

    OK, true, I guess I use the word fatigue more in general assuming it implies metabolic stress, ect.
    I guess what I was eluding to, was it 'seems' like load is more a means to an end, it activates sooner, therefore causes more metabolic stress. The higher the tension, the more ATP usage per time unit, so the more metabolic stress. I remember one area of tension and activation that always bothered me, some of the physiology information about tension and activation seem to say that a higher load does not increase the 'tension per fiber' but it increases more how often that max tension is being created by that fiber. On the one hand, that makes sense, we can't 'put a load on a fiber', a fiber 'creates tension'. A fully activated fiber does and can only create some max level of tension, if the load on the whole muscle is greater, it would just mean more fibers are actually 'on' at each point in time (their combined max tension's would add up to equal the amount required at that millisecond in time).

    But, on the other hand, if you use a lighter load until fatigue, the fibers are becoming fatigued from intermitant use , and never 'get to' display or 'feel' full tension as they only become fully activated later when their force is lowered. This means, (since fiber force is directly related to total crossbridges in parallel), if a fully (neurally) activated fiber is fatigued, it actually isn't (mechanically, as in all possible crossbridges working) fully activated.

    Also, we talk a lot about rate coding and how it graduates force, yet some physiology texts I've read, remarked that a fiber increases force with rate coding up until tetany, then one said, 'All contractions that lead to movement are tetanic'. In other words, we can consider weightlifting as a scenario where fibers are always in tetany, and force is varied by how many MU's are actually 'on' at any given point in time. More like variable timing in a car engine.

    Hmmmm... gotta think on this a bit....
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  12. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member


    I like it. Very similar to what I do.
     

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