timing

mushys

New Member
Hi
I am just getting into HST and have just completed 6 workouts using 15s.

Coming from a powerlifting spell of 2 years with hardly any sets above 6 reps, this was a tough task, but I got all 15 reps on most exercises during session 6, and I reckon I was near failure on most.

Now I am on the 10's and following advice from another thread, decided to do 1 set of 10 plus a set of 5 to keep up the volume.

After my first set of squats((122.5k x10, raw) , which were relatively easy having been doing 15s for the last 2 weeks, I waited 3 minutes to get my heart rate down (I actually used a monitor and I waited until 110 beats per min) then I did a set of 5, same weight.
I did the same for stiff deads on a box.
Later during the workout I used a 2 minute rest periiod between sets, as they were easier exercises.

My thoughts were that if one does not monitor time, especially if going for the cluster sets idea, then the workout is not really progressive in every aspect (except load), as if I am taking longer to do the sets, then this is making for an easier effect. Only by timing would I know I was actually doing something progressive.

Even timing does not really bridge the gap between doing one set of 15, and 3 sets of 5 at the end, as rest time presumably is much higher. But at least timing can lend consistency during the 10s, then during the 5s.

Any thoughts?
I am used to long rests between sets, does anyone think there is an optimum time?

Another thing - is it better to alternate squats and deads during the same cycle, or to exclusively use one or another during different cycles? I know it is possible to do both exercises during the same workout, but my 40 year old body has taken some hammer over the years and sometimes a less direct route is faster?!

Anyway, I am fired up over HST, I love the big exercises and doing them 3 times per week really appeals to me.
At the mo I am doing 4 cardio sessions on off days, but I want to get into a 6 day split at some point,

How does the following look;
Day 1
Squat
Good morning
leg press
Stiff deadlift
Trap bar deadlift
Calf
Shrug
Bent over row
EZ curl


Day 2
Bench
Incline Bench
Military Press
Standing Tricep extension
Narrow bench
Crunch

and repeat over 6 days. Hardish cardio once per weekon off day (30 mins fast jog) , light cardio (skipping, punch bag, eliptical rider) following Day 2 workout which is a little easier than the day 1 workout.

Cheers.
 
Mushys

In my opinion you should shorten the rest periods as much as possible, they would however vary as you go heavier, longer in other words, but keep them to 2 minutes maximum and that is between heavy sets.

Now for a workout, I prefer this.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bench/dips
Rows/chins
Squats/deads
Military press</div>

It is the most effective, then towards the 5's you can add incline d/b curls straight after reverse close grip chins and skullcrushers or other tricep extension exercises straight after dips.

The arm iso's should be included only after doing one or two full cycles without any iso's if you can do without them, many can't
biggrin.gif


Don't overdo the cardio thing either, keep to using that on days off!

Try it and see!
 
I have always kept rest periods as short as possible.

For me thats 1 minute...which is about the time it takes for the muscle and nervous system to recover completely.

When i am cutting I go for 30 secs or less.

Short rest periods are believed to give you a spike in testosterone....( There is debate over this and the science).

However I like 1 min or less for several reason.

Time ( I have a life outside of the gym)

Aerobic (you will get winded doing this so its good for your heart too)

Plus it seems to be sufficient time to recover.

If 1 min is not long enough for you I recommend 90 seconds but nothing more than that.

We are not powerlifting!
 
Foir 15's I do only one set so no problem with rest. For 10's and 5's I incorporate drop sets so I have as close to zero rest between as possible. Because I have to change weights, it usually ends up being about 10 to 15 seconds.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but keep them to 2 minutes maximum and that is between heavy sets.</div>Why?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Short rest periods are believed to give you a spike in testosterone....( There is debate over this and the science).</div>And?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Aerobic (you will get winded doing this so its good for your heart too)</div>VO2 changes with resistance training rarely occur although aerobic metabolism increases

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Plus it seems to be sufficient time to recover.</div>

For whom?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If 1 min is not long enough for you I recommend 90 seconds but nothing more than that.</div>Again, why?

Look, sorry for the sarcastic tone here but honestly I get so tired of the black and white answers to a complex response. If you think that shorteing your rest from 5 minutes to 2 minutes is somehow going to translate to decreased gains you're kidding yourself. Yet shortening your rest periods to times that don't allow adequate recovery can seriously impact your ability to provide sufficent TUT and loading. So bottom line when it comes to rest between sets should be....whatever allows you to maintain work output without seriously having to decrease the load you are working with. But to try and pigeon hole it into a set time frame is BS.
 
I agree with Dan from a logical standpoint rather than a slight scientific look at time between sets.

I have another timing question. What is optimal rep cadence per amount of reps? I have never been strict with it, but that may change this fall if I get a good answer. I usually just slow it down a bit during the negative part of the exercise.
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Aug. 18 2006,12:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I agree with Dan from a logical standpoint rather than a slight scientific look at time between sets.  

I have another timing question.  What is optimal rep cadence per amount of reps?  I have never been strict with it, but that may change this fall if I get a good answer.  I usually just slow it down a bit during the negative part of the exercise.</div>
it's exactly 1.2334 per concentric rep if your load is &lt;100Lbs

if the load is &lt; than 100Lbs then it's exactly and I mean exactly 2.33789 secs

Now to fiqure of the rep cadence based on the number of reps take the numbers above and subtract .023 sec per rep beyond your first.

I am totally not serious here BTW.
tounge.gif
 
<div>
(Dan Moore @ Aug. 18 2006,11:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but keep them to 2 minutes maximum and that is  between heavy sets.</div>Why?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Short rest periods are believed to give you a spike in testosterone....( There is debate over this and the science).</div>And?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Aerobic (you will get winded doing this so its good for your heart too)</div>VO2 changes with resistance training rarely occur although aerobic metabolism increases

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Plus it seems to be sufficient time to recover.</div>

For whom?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If 1 min is not long enough for you I recommend 90 seconds but nothing more than that.</div>Again, why?

Look, sorry for the sarcastic tone here but honestly I get so tired of the black and white answers to a complex response. If you think that shorteing your rest from 5 minutes to 2 minutes is somehow going to translate to decreased gains you're kidding yourself. Yet shortening your rest periods to times that don't allow adequate recovery can seriously impact your ability to provide sufficent TUT and loading. So bottom line when it comes to rest between sets should be....whatever allows you to maintain work output without seriously having to decrease the load you are working with. But to try and pigeon hole it into a set time frame is BS.</div>
The science reference:

Joe Book of muscle.

I have read were the shorter rest periods give you spike in testosterone...and?....well if you get more test that is a good thing!

I have not took the time to provide any science behind the benefits of shorter rest periods around VO2...and Yet I will not post them. I appreciate the studies...but don't need them. If you are working hard...breathing hard and are doing a shorter rest period or even a circuit common sense will show you the benefit of this.

Is it optimal for the most load? -No...but if you are working out for health reasons...this is ideal...which is also a priority of mine.

As for sufficient time to recover and the reference to for whom?....well I guess they short answer would be for myself and my observations over the past 12 years doing this....I know that the muscle generally recovers close to 100% after around 1 min of rest...if not 90 seconds should do it.

Why not more than 90 seconds?

My question is why would you go more than 90 seconds?

To lift more load? -Well if that the case then get in shape and condition your body to the rest periods of 90 second which may require you some time to get use to but once you have done this and can increase load then you are still doing more work each workout which equals progression.

I understand were you are coming from with recommendations on Black and White issues...and don't get me wrong I appreciate the science...but it gets to out of hand sometimes with having to go deep on what is......&quot;is&quot;.

I think that majority of the new comers need a black and white issue.

How many sets....well science would tell us that it depends on the person, condition....variables nutriton genetic makeup...etc.

But the majority of newbies...and even myself sometimes need to just be told what to do.

Got eat do 3 sets of 10 reps...3 times a week and get your protein in....thats all the majority of people want to know...IMO.

Why is 2 + 2 = 4....I don't know??....I just know its 4.

My thing is sometimes people do want to just know to go do &quot;x&quot; and do it for &quot;y&quot; times....the science sometimes confuses the hell out of myself...and I can go to deep.

When the truth be told eat...do recommended routine follow the guidelines as closely as possible and it will work.

Deep sometimes get confusing, and science is normally undercontrolled situations...and it doesn't always provide the true picture...at least not always!

We all know to bulk...to grow muscles....but there are always exceptions to the rule.

Sometimes Black and white works
biggrin.gif







!
smile.gif
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why is 2 + 2 = 4....I don't know??....I just know its 4.</div>

I hate it when people use basic mathematic proofs as analogies to other theories.
 
I have always just lowered the reps slow and controlled due to my injury.

You see normally I think 3-1-1 to lower and raise the weight.

Which I guess would be optimal?
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Aug. 18 2006,14:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So there isn't anything specific to optimal rep cadence?</div>
Most of the studies indicate better results with a faster cadence than I would thought. You want to go slow enough that momentum is not a factor, but otherwise it seems that the quicker you move the better the results are. Surprising to me, but ...
 
I understand and completely agree with the momentum factor. I actually use momentum to my advantage during post-5's. However, why would quicker rep cadence be better? Is this possibly due to greater power (work*distance / time). I was always under the impression that greater TUL was better for strength.
 
I believe those studies were referring to concentric movements and not eccentric movements. I usually do an explosive concentric movement and a slow 3-5 seconds) eccentric movement.
 
<div>
(Old and Grey @ Aug. 18 2006,16:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I believe those studies were referring to concentric movements and not eccentric movements. I usually do an explosive concentric movement and a slow 3-5 seconds) eccentric movement.</div>
No, actually the opposite.
 
You guys are welcome to search Pubmed for yourselves and find the studies, but if you go to Dan's site ( hypertrophy-research.com ) he has done the leg work and has links to studies on just about any aspect of training you might be interested in. Under the &quot;contraction and fatigue&quot; tap is a section on velocity. It is definitely worth the price of admission.
 
<div>
(mushys @ Aug. 18 2006,09:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am used to long rests between sets, does anyone think there is an optimum time?</div>
If you go to the HST FAQ forum there is a FAQ on this near the top. Small excerpt:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
The Rest between sets is determined by the amount of time required to regain sufficient strength to successfully achieve the minimum effective Volume. There is not much to it, and you will not see any dramatic results by varying rest periods (within reason, of course)
</div>

There is further discussion about possibly varying things from as short as 30 seconds in the 15s to as long as 5 minutes during 5s and negatives, but it's a matter of what works for you. It's not a major factor in hypertrophy as long as you can get the work in.

Joe, I think it's more newby friendly to just say it's not a major factor in making gains. If someone asked &quot;how many calories should I consume in a day?&quot; would you say &quot;2,800 or at most 3,000, never more&quot;? Of course not. You would ask about his goals, current weight, is he cutting or bulking, etc.

In this case if hypertrophy is a goal the rest time between sets is not a major factor. Given some other factors you have given some good information about why shorter rest times are helpful for you. But it's only helpful in that context of what you are trying to achieve by it, and in the context that shorter rest times are not needed for hypertrophy as stated in the FAQ that I quoted.
 
Back
Top