timing

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(Lol @ Aug. 19 2006,16:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess one way to reduce overall rest time but to still allow more time between heavy sets of the same exercise would be to 'loosely' superset. So if you do a set of squats, rest a minute, do a set of bench, rest a minute and then go back to squats etc., you would save a whole bunch of time and probably do just as well as if you had a straight two minute rest between each set of squats and bench.</div>
Very good post, lol.

That is actually one of the suggestions in the &quot;Rest between sets&quot; FAQ that I quoted from earlier.

As you note, maybe easier for those training at home, as I do. Another possibility is using Dan's Maximum Stimulation method for at least some sets in the heavy workouts. Same caveat about difficult to do in a busy gym may apply. You can get the equivalent work of 2-4 sets done in one set, but it's a long set.

I'm pretty new to both HST and Max-Stim, but I suspect that it would be difficult to make Max-Stim highly aerobic. On the other hand, I'm using it exclusively, and it seems so far that I will be able to do 20 heavy reps significantly faster than I can do 4 heavy sets of 5, given the rest time that I need (3 minutes or more if near my RM).

But my goal is hypertrophy and strength. Aerobic capacity is just a bonus; I'll jog and do other things for that. Faster workouts is nice too, but not at the expense of hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is why I bother to do this stuff at all.

The key is as you (and I think Dan and others) have noted, tailoring advice to a person's situation and goals.
 
I like what O&amp;G is recommending.

I use to do what O&amp;G does now...except I did it with Higher volume.

I have thought about doing incorporating one drop set to my routine now.

So for 5's it would be 1st set....2nd set...3rd set.....and then a drop of a light weight with high...reps. I don't know if science says this is good...but like O&amp;G says it feels good.

This has been a good thread.

As I stated earlier in my post I like the reduced rest periods for &quot;ME&quot; b/c it gets and keeps me in overall better shape.

At one time in my life I was bigger and perhaps stronger...but I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without being winded...I hate the appearance of being in shape but in fact it was the exact opposite.

Now a days I try to stay overall fit...which is why I like the min rest periods.

Plus career and family needs time.

Ideally if I had a home gym and could bring myself to eat 5,000 calories a day...I would workout 4 days a week on am pm splits.
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But I guess that will have to wait until retirement...or when I have the time.
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(mushys @ Aug. 19 2006,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">http://www.hypertrophy-research.com/articles/training.doc

here it clearly states rest between sets should be monitored, quoting 2 mins as a good starting place for most.

For myself, the 1 minute rest period some advocate would result in a medium intensity aerobics session.</div>
But understand what I wrote there,

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The rest needed should be based on being able to complete all sets and number of reps for each set therefore monitoring rest and adjusting appropriately will need to be done. For most trainees a good starting point should be 2mins or more. We will discuss varying rest patterns and it’s impact later in our series.</div>

I purposefully left it wide open as I knew that not everyone can or will use the same rest periods. The first sentence IMO is the take home message. Unfortunately I never completed the whole series as I moved on to Max-Stim.
 
&quot;I use to do what O&amp;G does now...except I did it with Higher volume.&quot;

Volume isn't necessarily your friend. Progressive lifting, culminating in high intensity, along with frequency, at least in my experience, are more hypertrophy friendly than volume.

Of course, that brings us right back to the discussion of what is the ideal number of reps when clustering for hypertrophy. Let's not go there again.
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(Lifting N Tx @ Aug. 19 2006,18:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm pretty new to both HST and Max-Stim, but I suspect that it would be difficult to make Max-Stim highly aerobic.  

I'll jog and do other things for that.  </div>
Well believe it or not it's quite aerobic in a sense. But that's for another Forum.

There ya go
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(Old and Grey @ Aug. 19 2006,19:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Of course, that brings us right back to the discussion of what is the ideal number of reps when clustering for hypertrophy. Let's not go there again.
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Exactly 2.91348 but you can round up if you like
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess one way to reduce overall rest time but to still allow more time between heavy sets of the same exercise would be to 'loosely' superset. So if you do a set of squats, rest a minute, do a set of bench, rest a minute and then go back to squats etc., you would save a whole bunch of time and probably do just as well as if you had a straight two minute rest between each set of squats and bench.
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RIGHT! That's what I actually do when things get pretty heavy and more time between sets is needed in order to recover strength. Generally I try to do &quot;real&quot; supersets but I won't lose any sleep over it if I need half a minute or one to catch my breath when switching exercises.

Rest time between sets is a complex matter and it largely depends on your goals... If your goal is hypertrophy and just that, the FAQ clearly states that it should be enough to recover sufficient strength between sets so that the load is not compromised.

I agree with Dan, we can't really make any general statements about &quot;optimal&quot; rest time, since it depends on what you're trying to accomplish through your training. But I understand that some guys are just trying to give newbies a general &quot;rule of thumb&quot; if you may, something that will work rather well for the casual lifter, so they are essentially making a few assumptions about their goals.

Think about Dan's Max-Stim for a second, there is no such thing as rest time between &quot;sets&quot;, but rather an &quot;M-time&quot; between reps. Its goal is obviously to increase the total TUT without compromising the load. So, what I'm trying to say is that we have mainly two important variables when discussing about hypertrophy, load and total TUT. We are trying to maximize both of them within reason (taking into account our strength limits, the time we are prepared to spend in the gym, our energy reserves, the hit to CNS, safety and a myriad other factors). &quot;Rest time&quot; is not really an issue. It helps to think about it outside of terms like &quot;reps&quot; and &quot;sets&quot;. As the FAQ says, these are only terms which are used to keep some order in our training, but they are not directly related to hypertrophy.

Another good example is clustering. There isn't really a fixed number of &quot;sets&quot; or a fixed &quot;rest time between sets&quot;, but rather a fixed load and a fixed total number of reps (which directly translates to total TUT). The load and the TUT are considered enough to elicit a hypertrophic response at the time, taking into account our current level of conditioning.

I'm not sure if this clears anything up or makes any sense at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the muscle doesn't really know about reps and sets, but rather about mechanical load and the time it is exposed to that load. As I said, it really helps to think about it outside of reps and sets.

Thanks for listening,
Dimitris
 
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(9to5lifter @ Aug. 19 2006,19:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm not sure if this clears anything up or makes any sense at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the muscle doesn't really know about reps and sets, but rather about mechanical load and the time it is exposed to that load. As I said, it really helps to think about it outside of reps and sets.</div>
Once one has read the basic principles around which HST is based, what you said makes perfect sense.

Well said!
 
Dont worry O&amp;G I was referring back to the old days of split routines and the encyclopedia of bodybuilding by Arnold.

Overtraining would be and understatement.
 
oh also to add...with all of this knowledge everyone is inputing....its great and all but how many of you guys are eating enough?

This is a daily challenge for some of us.

Oh and to beat you to it Dan...that would be 6.9765 meals a day!
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My two pence worth:

There is a vast difference between resting 15 secs between sets and resting 5 minutes: Your weights drop like a sack of spuds.

However there is a much reduced difference in resting 3 minutes compared to 5 minutes.

If you were to plot this, I don't believe that you'd have anything near a linear graph.

Personally I find I need less rest between heavy 5's than I do between 15's or 20's.

Personally I don't need as much rest between sets of triceps pressdown as I do between sets of daeds or squats.

I also vary the rest time depending upon where I am in a loading cycle. It's much easier to shorten rest intervals at 75% max weights than at 95%.

In short, there is no &quot;ideal&quot; rest period, there are a myriad of contributing factors. Rest as little as necessary, but not so little that it has a substantial adverse effect on the forthcoming sets.

Gazz
 
I mean if you want to get extremely technical of course everyone is different and of course 15 sec rest period is different from 90 seconds.

To stand behind my original statement which again was advice for newcomer or noob.

1 to 2 mins is ok IMO...prob to be more detail 2 min would be fine...but there I got getting detailed.

I know that everything is client specific...so I think anyone who looks to far into my advice is not getting the Big picture.

If you read my threads all 700 of them...you will notice my advice differs for others on this board who are more expierenced.

But for a newcomer I think a &quot;cookie cutter answer is fine&quot;

Do you think Vanillas HST is what everyone here follows?

Do you think Bryan follows Vanilla HST to the &quot;T&quot; every workout?....I doubt it.

I am sure there are changes we all make...but he had to design a one size fits all routine.

My rest periods for a newcomer is just that one size fits all....are there other variables that go into play...sure.

Do I go outside of them when the weights get real heavy...yeah sometimes.

I like the idea of giving good advice....without having to back up every variable of the sentence in which I wrote it in.
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 20 2006,06:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I mean if you want to get extremely technical of course everyone is different and of course 15 sec rest period is different from 90 seconds.

To stand behind my original statement which again was advice for newcomer or noob.

1 to 2 mins is ok IMO...prob to be more detail 2 min would be fine...but there I got getting detailed.

I know that everything is client specific...so I think anyone who looks to far into my advice is not getting the Big picture.

If you read my threads all 700 of them...you will notice my advice differs for others on this board who are more expierenced.

But for a newcomer I think a &quot;cookie cutter answer is fine&quot;

Do you think Vanillas HST is what everyone here follows?

Do you think Bryan follows Vanilla HST to the &quot;T&quot; every workout?....I doubt it.

I am sure there are changes we all make...but he had to design a one size fits all routine.

My rest periods for a newcomer is just that one size fits all....are there other variables that go into play...sure.

Do I go outside of them when the weights get real heavy...yeah sometimes.

I like the idea of giving good advice....without having to back up every variable of the sentence in which I wrote it in.
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Joe

Calm down mate!

Basically I would agree that for beginners, good advice would be a set rest time of possibly 1-3 mins to start with then they'll find their own way. I was merely pointing out from 30 years of training experince that it is not a simple question to answer, and that there are vaiables to consider.

I don't believe that pointing out 15 secs rest is going to have a radical impact on poundages when compared to 5 minutes is &quot;getting extremely technical&quot;.

Is everyone doing vanilla HST? Don't know and don't really care. I believe my observations would transfer to any training methodology

Did I offer any scientific back up? No, if you read my post (unfortunately I don't really have time to read all 700 of yours: perhaps another day) I believe I prefixed with &quot;personally&quot;. Did I ask you for scientific proof? Don't believe so.

For every scientific &quot;study&quot; that shows the one thing I'll show you two that show the opposite (who pays the piper......).

I also like the idea of &quot;giving good advice&quot;. I also like reading other people viewpoints: Apologies if my viewpoint offended you in any way.

Gazz
 
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