Too close to the project

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Tenacious, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. Tenacious

    Tenacious New Member

    1st..well done; great questions- awesome answers. So, good I've been coming here for almost a year and haven't been able to think of anything worth while to ask.
    Now. I've been on a HST-only routine since I started reading this site, save one bout of single factor 5x5. Each cycle, it seems, my routine changes a little to encourage results. I eat a little cleaner. I add a few hundred cals. More careful and longer SD Etc..
    I'm eating frozen meals that I prepared earlier in the month, so I always have properly partitioned macro ratios.  My pre and post shakes have glucose added according to the faqs. I'm up to 2875cal-3000cal total each day.
    The actual training is evolving also. It's still a vanilla 3x a week workout, but now it's only compounds for me. I was a competitive triathlete for several years. As a results boosting measure, I've given up my rigorous cardio training regimine. That was hard to do. I think that my strength levels are in a great place.
    Here's whats wrong...none of this has produced any results so far. My first instinct is to add more cals. No problem, but I have to wonder why I haven't seen any size gains at all. Shouldn't I have gotten a little bigger.
    6'0"
    177lbs
    chest 43"
    waist 34"
    biceps 15.5"
    That's before HST, and after. My lifts have all skyrocketed. My calorie intake has skyrocketed. Could this have anything to do with my previous training?
    What am I missing here??? I'm not giving up.
     
  2. Joe G

    Joe G New Member

    Sucks you havent got the results you wanted so far, but you have the right attitude which is never give up.

    You did mention exactly what your routine was besides saying it was 3x per week and mostly compounds. So others can evaluate better give a sample workout that resembles what you have done for nearly the past year.

    Also before you start wondering why you havent made the results in size you wanted I would increase caloric intake like you said. You may have a very fast metabolism, for example Im sure someone with hyperthyroidism is going to have a very hard time putting on muscle with 2800 calories.

    Also how much exactly have your strength increased? Im just curious because one would think you would put on size if you gained a significant amount of strength.

    Hope you figure it out, till then I would increase the cals if i were you.

    Joe G
     
  3. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    As he talked about caloric intake, the same goes with volume... (although you did increase strength).. do more sets, and even do more frequency.
     
  4. Tenacious

    Tenacious New Member

    Whoops...

    How about this:

    mwf
    2weeks 15's
    2weeks 10's
    2weeks 5's
    2-3weeks post 5's(3rm w/meta,negs)
    2weeks SD(last one was 3)

    the routine with strength #'s for 3's:
    squat(405lbs - didn't used to do them)
    bench(305)
    row(310)
    deadlift(335)
    standing barbell press(205)
    pull ups(260 - I do these at the lat machine)
     
  5. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Then do it. At 177 Lbs use 18 X your BW and see what happens, right now you are at ~16. The additional ~200 Kcals may be the trick if not try 20X BW.

    If you have a very physical job or very active metabolism, then 16X BW may only be your maintenance level.

    Are you taking Myotape and BF measurements? If so any change? and are you ensuring you measure at the same spot each time?

    What was your previous training? Full body 3X week is more energy demanding than other training.

    9 times out of 10, if you are gaining strength and not gaining size it's your diet.

    Hope you fix it, good luck.
     
  6. Tenacious

    Tenacious New Member

    This is great. Pretty much what I expected to hear. I'm glad there's still hope. I was starting to worry that I might not have any chance for improvement.

    As for my previous training. I didn't hit the weights very much, mostly just core training(abs) in the gym. I spent most of my time on the bike or in the water. Strangely, I was the same size then as now.

    My measurements are taken w/myotape, of course, I can't rule out the possibility I'm just measuring in different spots. However, I try to hit the biggest circumference. No BF readings for now, but I've become more cut since starting weight training than before. How cut? Abs-yes, cuts in shoulders and chest. My biceps are even cut down the side.

    The only real change I can point to is totally subjective. I think my muscles feel harder, but again, not neccesarily bigger.
     
  7. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    What does that tell you? ;)
     
  8. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    I was just about to quote what Dan just quoted...

    Simple answer: eat more

    Add an extra 100 calories per week... but do it to a point.. if you measure weight and bf% daily, then you can eventually figure out the point where the caloric intake is where you want it.
     
  9. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Many years ago now, I remember training really hard for a whole year and making what amounted to almost no gains at all. I was really peeved to say the least and thought that I had perhaps reached the limit for my genetics. I had read a load of Darden's stuff (which reiterated a lot of Jones' stuff) where he talked a lot about genetics being a big part in your potential. He also talked about diet as being almost unimportant unless you wanted to lose fat. Protein intake in grams was recommended at being 0.36 x body weight in lbs. So I took the advice, busted my butt for a year and gained nada!

    And now, many years later, I chance upon HSN & HST and decide to give it a go again. The training priciples are great but now I am eating to grow too, following all the HSN advice. I couldn't be happier with my progress. It's almost as if my body has been dying to grow, if only I would give it what it needed!

    Do what Dan and the others suggest and I'm almost certain your gains will come.
     
  10. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    Dan and Rest
    how about case when someone is gaining strenght
    but for few last weeks nothing but fat around waist ?
    diet (macro) is good
    cals ? - maybe
    training is right - still gaining
    no aerobics - winter time in Poland :D
    any ideas ?
    thanks in advance
     
  11. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    ZMT,

    I would say give it some time, significant (visible) hypertrophy changes may take weeks or longer if you are very trained. If fat is coming on too quickly, then add more cardio, slightly reduce calories, or live with the fat gain (something very trained lifters may need to do) and diet it off later after the bulk cycle.
     
  12. xarfox

    xarfox New Member

    hey tenacious,
    how many sets do you do for each exercise, that looks kinda like my routine?

    also i agree with the other guys about eating more - strangley enough you and I have about the same body measurements (except you lift way more than me)

    with a lot of measuring i found my maintenance level to be around 2800-2900, thin people like us just burn so many calories its ridiculous, get up over 3k and some size increases will soon follow
     
  13. beaul

    beaul New Member

    ZMT,

    Also, Its been shown that bodyfat % has a lot to do with where you gain your weight when in a calorie surplus. If you already have a significant amount of fat then more than likely your body will prefer to store any excess as fat. I read somewhere like 17% bodyfat and up will add 1 pound of muscle for every 2 pounds of fat. 17% and under it starts getting to a more favorable muscle to fat gain ratio.

    later,
    beau
     
  14. Tenacious

    Tenacious New Member

    Xarfox--
    15's & 10's I go 2 sets. I'm pretty sure the consensous is I really only need one set in the 15's. I go two because it allows me to increment more clean(no zig-zags). One set of 15 and I'd feel like I needed to boost the weight quite a bit.

    5's I go 3 sets...but the last week I can only get 2 sets, usually. That's when I start to add meta work.

    Post 5's - negs, that's when I get to really bleed for it. I mostly do about 5 reps negs. So, I would call that 5 sets of 1 rep. That's plenty for me. Also, I carry on with the meta work throughout the post fives.

    I've already started upping the cals. Thanks everybody. Luckily a couple hundred a day isn't that much.

    Giddy-up
     
  15. jwbond

    jwbond New Member

    tenacious, i am 6'1 @ 205lbs and 12-13% bf. believe it or not i am putting up roughly the same weight as you are. i was ~182lbs as of last june prior to hst. the other item i changed roughly the same time was eating like a dang horse.

    increase cals and keep training hard. i have a high metabolism so i had to eat enough so i was horribly full all day long. if you want the size you need the fuel.
     
  16. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'm somewhat close to your height, just about an inch taller. I was about your size a while ago... I found that I have to eat around 20 times bodyweight in pounds to gain mass, otherwise I gain very, very little. You'll have to experiment to find the right amount. Me, I would just start hitting 20 times bodyweight in calories and cut away any fat gains you might get later on.
     
  17. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    thanks for all hints [​IMG]
     
  18. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    ok here my 2cents
    i sympathize with your plight. i have spent many years crawling up from 6' 140 lbs at 20yrs old to 6' 200 at 38yrs old. some observations ive made along the way.
    age is a factor. or should i say metabolism. if you have a very fast one as i did you can just about eat everything and not gain much.
    diet is everything. your lifting # indicate youve got some strength so your program is working but not your diet. if you just want wgt, any wgt by all means chow down. if you want muscle gain then continue to eat smart and add cals slowly mostly in the form of good quality (actual food) pro.
    the most important thing is to keep a food log. this can be time consuming and is easy to quit on after a few days but it is worth it. the easiest way to do it is write down what your going to eat most every day (this is what it takes) and calc the nutrients. then get a sheet with all the days of the month and a box for each meal each day. if you stick with the plan you mark that meal off if not mark something else.
    you will be suprised how loose your tight meal plan really is as well as provide yourself some motivation and feedback.
    im sure you would have seen the futility of your previous eating plan if you were charting it.
    this is not a critisism...i spent years not doing this.
    i would also weigh, measure even photo at the begin of each month. if the chart shows to many diet plan shortfalls probably less then 70-80% good meals you shouldnt expect much should you. if you stick w/the plan but dont feel any gain/loss then you need the revise the plan. adding or subtracting small amounts.(remember even your best month will still reveal small changes so patience). it will take time but within a year im sure you not only will be gaining but youll be armed with the info to make the changes specific to your body which no other general diet/workout can do.

    good luck.
     
  19. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    I keep a daily log of my caloric intake, bodyweight, body fat %, BMR, and a BMR multiplier that I change weekly according to the caloric balance/estimated weight.

    Time consuming? When I created it (an hour or so)... but it takes 10 minutes a day and is extremely worth it IMO.

    You can find it in the Maintaining Daily Calories thread or whatever it is called in the Diet & Nutrition thread.

    Or.. just PM me

    -Colby
     
  20. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I will third that, about keeping track of all your food intake, etc. I use fitday, and once you've got all your foods in there, it is easy to put in what you ate or plan to eat for each day. It also allows you to track your daily weight so you can measure your trends over time.

    About the eating thing... I agree, eating good, quality foods is important for general health but serously, if you can't eat enough to gain weight, then it's time to stop worrying so much about eating clean for a little while, so you can actually gain some mass. A three month bulking phase that is not quite so clean as usual is not going to give you heart disease.
    I personally eat fairly clean most of the year but don't eat clean when bulking, and I've had great results. Also, last I checked, my cholesterol was great, as was blood pressure, pulse rate, etc, so I really don't think bulking in this fashion is going to kill you.
     

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