Totally discouraged by HST

I think that the problem of many is that they keep seeing HST as a program. But it's not. Max-OT is a program. Heavy Duty is a program. HST is "PRINCIPLES"!!!!
So I think that, among those who are not having results with HST, yes there may be a bad choice of exercices, or a lack in there nutrition, but it could be that they stick too much to a program instead of sticking to the principles...
So by trial and error, try to build a program that will work for you. The patterns that Bryan gave us are just a question of generalizing a program that would help us to start.
Keep it in mind: HST is "principles", not a program.
So keep it up and don't give up!
 
Joe G, sure, no doubt changes, once identified as the problem, can influence results. The question, to get an accurate asessment of any training program, be it HST, HIT, Joe Blow Training or anything else is the time needed to make an accurate assumption. Especially where hypertrophy is concerned, muscle group, complexity of movement, nutrition, hormones, recovery, intensity, work, and also outside influences all have an impact.

The catch is identifying the real issue, this rarely can be done in one cycle, especially when one cylcle hasn't even completed yet. So to say that changes need to be made this quickly only adds to the problem. Making it very difficult to assess cause and relationship. This is what gets many trainees chasing their tails and circling in confusion.

Bottom line is what ever method you choose stick with it long enough to understand what ramifications there are, be it positive or negative.

Lasting, HST in not magic, it's not a cure all, it's not automatically going to put 2 inches on your biceps overnight. Is it effective sure, when implemented properly, adjusted when needed (after identifying what needs adjusting), and all other factors have been implemented properly as well.

So back to Rzeiba, before making drastic changes find out what's broke first.

Have your hormone levels checked.
Try increasing your energy intake for several weeks.
Try manipulating your recovery.
Try heavier loading for longer durations.

Most importantly track everything, without enough substantial data it's very hard to make a strategic plan. 6 weeks into one cycle hardly gives you substantial data.
 
did you SD properly before you started the cycle? if not then that might be a problem because of the frequency that you were used to before.
 
Hi Rzeiba,

Did you SD for a week or so before beginning?

I had a patch like like you're having around the same time on my first HST round - I wasn't making great progress and was pretty despondant about it. Turns out I'd made quite some strength gains during the 15s and 10s, so by the time I got to the 5s they were actually too light. I did a quick remeasure on the Friday on my 1st week of 5s, and upped the weights accordingly for the next week and for the negs, and had better luck in those last 3 weeks.

Chris.
 
Yes I did SD for 9 days. I know that with the principles of HST, in theory I am supposed to gain size lifting lighter weights after my SD as long as they increase each workout, but maybe I just respond to heavy weights and lower reps. The way I trained before I would lift heavy and only be able to do 6-8 reps with the weight.

Atlas, you said that HST is about the principle and not about the exact routine. So how can I apply the principles without actually doing the proposed routine?
 
the proposed routine has the 15s in the beginning mostly for priming the joints for heavier weights. so what you could do there is just any type of light workout that increase metabolic fatigue. the main principle of HST is to be able to increment the weights and increment frequently. SO, what you could techniquely do is just go in the gym pick a number of reps and sets and just do a weight, rest a day go again and do a higher weight. As the weights progress higher, you can do this by feel and lower the number of reps, lower the number of sets, and try to keep frequency high until you hit your something close to your 3-5 rep max and continue with those to squeeze out some more growth. ALL the while keeping protein and calories in general higher than maintenance.

pzhang
 
as noobie says..you dont have to do 15s,you could start with 8s for 2wks 5s 2 or 3wks negs 2wks sd and start again :D
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rzieba @ Nov. 03 2005,11:35)]Yes I did SD for 9 days. I know that with the principles of HST, in theory I am supposed to gain size lifting lighter weights after my SD as long as they increase each workout, but maybe I just respond to heavy weights and lower reps. The way I trained before I would lift heavy and only be able to do 6-8 reps with the weight.
Atlas, you said that HST is about the principle and not about the exact routine. So how can I apply the principles without actually doing the proposed routine?
Click to expand...
First off, as everyone said, check your diet first. If you are not gaining a pound or two a week, you are not eating enough.

Second, check your volume. As the HST Faqs state, and many people have said, you should adjust your volume so that your total volume each week with HST is the same as you were doing before with your other training methods. If you are still not gaining muscle, you could try increasing volume further.

Adjusting volume is really the first tweak you should do to your routine if you are not getting results.
 
I'm not very encouraged after my first 2 weeks of 15's. I started using protein shakes and eating 2 huge serves of meat a day with pasta etc and heaps drinking heaps of milk. The only weight gains I made are in body fat. Then again I don't know how good my scales are.

Its early days yet but it would have been nice to see somthing better than that. :confused:
 
Hey guys :)

My very first HST cycle long ago was also a disapointment.
Yep, it was my diet.

After changing my diet - the addition of 3 cans of tuna that also provides a heck of a lot of polyunsaturated fats - it got way better.

Of course, a lot of things can be at fault other than diet. Test levels, for example. Get them checked. ASAP. Let's make sure you can actually grow muscle before we continue going crazy with all kinds of advice.

Good luck! :)
-JV
 
Have a full blood panel done, this will give you both free test and total test. Plus some other information. Your GP can have this done but he may refer you to an endo.

Mine was able to do it with going to an endo.
 
Short answer to his problems:
He's doing a softer exercise program now than he did before, and will at first shrink, then start growing again. He can either increase toughness of exercises, or let it come naturally from the exercise plateu he's at now. In the end, he'll grow again.

Long answer:
If we ignore diet, I think the problem was that he was doing tougher workouts before, and when he changed to HST he's doing not as tough exercises.

there's been many attempts at trying to put together a metaphore which explains how muscles work, but generally the more developed the muscle is, the harder it is to squeeze out either more strength or more mass via exercises, whether you use HST or not.

You were probably before training the muscles quite harshly, and when you moved to HST you didn't get the toughness of exercises right, and thus you're probably training the muscle softer now than you did, it's basically the newbie in you which is holding you back (it's a new system, of course you want to make sure you do things right, kudos for you to do that).

Here's what will happen because the toughness isn't correct, first, your muscles will adapt to the lower training harshness, thus decrease maybe in size here and there.

Next, you will re-learn how to exercise your body with the HST program, understand how HST helps you gaining mass faster than the old way, gain more confidence, and from then you'll start to increase again as you increase toughness via the safer, better way called HST.

So don't worry about a small lapse, rather use this time to build a solid foundation of good exercises, and good exercise form, and then increase toughness from that foundation little by little via the HST philosophy, and you'll sprout fine.

Also, after each cycle re-read the faq, new questions will always pop up, and as this is a forum, and text-based discussion, and we can't show you by example (except maybe via exrx.net), you might misunderstand a few things, so re-read often.

S.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rzieba @ Nov. 03 2005,9:35)]...I know that with the principles of HST, in theory I am supposed to gain size lifting lighter weights after my SD as long as they increase each workout, but maybe I just respond to heavy weights and lower reps. The way I trained before I would lift heavy and only be able to do 6-8 reps with the weight...
Click to expand...
Just a quick comment. It is important to remember that the fundemental principle of HST is the requirement for increasing load. Anytime you go from a heavy load to a less heavy load (assuming volume remains equal) you will not see an increase in growth.

9 Days of SD is likely not sufficient to increase the sensitivity of the tissue to 15 rep loads, or even sub-max 10 rep loads for that matter. Depending on your previous training schedual 9 days may not be that much longer than the rest days you already had built into your routine.

So, bottom line, you probably won't see the stimulus you are looking for until you hit the 5s/negatives. In the future you may want to plan longer SD in order to get more from the lighter loads.
 
As an add on to what Bryan stated about not seeing growth until the 5's and negatives, I find this is true of me as well.  I see little to no growth during the 15's, so I only use them for a week.  I start seeing most of my growth occuring towards the end of the 10's and through the rest of the cycle.  Muscle biopsies have shown that the cross-sectional area of my vastus lateralis is almost 70% fast twitch, so my legs love heavier loads and lower reps (and my VO2 max sucks). While this is not indicative of the rest of my body muscle fiber distribution, it does give me an idea of what load and rep range is suitable for my other muscle groups based on the response I get from training them.  I still use the 15's for what they are worth, and that is to give my connective tissue a lactic acid bath.  I never look for much growth during this phase just as a matter of genetics.  MAYBE you are in the same boat, but I don't recommend a biopsy to find out.
sad.gif
 
Man.. you actually did a biopsy to find out your muscle percentages?

That's so drastic..

btw, bit off topic, but hey, do you have any goals regarding endurance? Are there endurance exercises (running, jump-rope, pushups/pullups, or whatnot) in which you have set yourself some minimums for?

S.
 
The biopsies (all 7 of them) were part of university studies, so I got paid. I have been doing at least one power exercise per training session as of late out of necessity (graduate assistant with Strength and Conditioning at university) because I have to keep up on my technique. Doing cleans, push jerks, and the like definitely helps my strength endurance and elevates my heart rate. Besides a warm-up, I do not do any specific aerobic exercise. I lose weight way too easy when I add in cardio.
 
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