Training upper back

W

wannagrow

New Member
I have a problem: I don't underrstand why the day after a workout only my chest & legs feels sore. My upper back never feels sore and I must admit that  I don't think its getting any stronger as I am stuck with the same RM for pull ups & other back exercises.

I tried adding more volume for my upper back compared to the rest of my body parts and I still feel nothing. Could it be that when I do back exercises that  my arms assist too much and how can  I remedy that?

I do things like pull-ups and barbell rows
 
wannagrow, have you tried increasing the load (weight) instead of the volume? For pull-ups, if you are using BW, try adding some additional weight.
 
electric, i increase the weight for back exercises every workout (despite zig-zagging ofcourse) just like any other body part.

You see I'm weak and I can only do 5 pull ups (bw) so when I build up to pull ups I do cable pulldowns instead.
And not only that but I alternate vertical pulling exercises (whether its pulldowns or pull-ups) every workout with horizontal pulling eg. db rows.

Basically, I do to 2 back exercises every workout. The first is barbell row and I do that every workout- its like a primary exercise. And the second exercise for back is auxilliary and I switch between horizontal pulling and vertical every workout, as I described above.

Now the reason for this is because the increments on my gym's lat pulldown machine are 15 lbs and those are too great. So I can only do lat pulldown increments every other workout and therefore I have to alternate it with something else & I chose db rows.

I am beginning to think that I chose a bad way of progression on back exercises and perhaps I should change my exercises for upper back. But its probably not advisable in the middle of a cycle???

I hope you understand.
 
First off, are you doing HST? Submax weights will not produce as much DOMS as failure training. DOMS are also not an indicator of growth; the tape is. Your strengths should be going up progressively; if not, you're probably not growing either.
Second, your lifts should be checked for form. Lifting without form is useless after a while, and dangerous.
Your progression with volume didn't work, so adding weight (as Electric said) is obviously the next trick, but you say your maxes stay the same. That tells me you're not doing HST. Reread the articles to familiarize yourself with the principles first, then adjust your workout. You could post your stats, routine and frequency so we could have a better idea what is happening and help out.
The only stupid questions are the ones not asked, but read the articles first for the answers.
 
quadancer, I am doing HST and I'm hoping its the way Bryan described it. I try not to deviate from it at all.

Well I'm about to begin the second week of 10s. And by now I would've hoped to get a little stronger (even though strength isnt my main goal- hypertrophy is).

I understnad that DOMS isn't an indicator of growth but the fact that my back is never the slightest bit sore concerns me and I am wondering if its just me or is it a common phenomenon. Even Bryan said in the FAQ that you should expect to be a little bit sore but not have severe DOMS.

What I meant is that I do 50% more back work than chest because my posture is bad and my back is lagging. So just to elaborate, I do flat bench 2 sets (thats 2 for chest) and for back I do 3 sets (50% more)

Speaking of exercise technique, what would you reccommend as a good source for instruction for exercise technique, I think that www.exrx.net is pretty good.

I think posting my routine would be a good idea. Should I start a new thread for that?
 
Like Quad said, check your form. Rows won't work too well if you don't do them just right. Don't use momentum to bring the weight up, that defeats the purpose. Try to feel the muscles in your back contracting as you bring the weight up to your torso.

There is also a thread on Lyle's site that talks about rows, pulldowns, etc and how to do them properly. I'll link to it in a minute.

You can also try a larger variety of exercises for your back. Are you deadlifting yet? I've found that deadlifting and specifically doing rack deadlifts from about knee level in a rack are great for the back.

Another thing to watch is to make sure you are involving the muscles in your back properly. From Lyle's back thread:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
2. A lot of people have trouble targetting/training/hitting the back. Part of it is that they can't see it, part of it is poor technique. A lot of trainees feel a ton of arm involvement and almost no back involvement with back exercises. This is very often the case if they have tight shoudlers from too much bench pressing. A key cue is to think of the arms as hooks or ropes and focus on what's going on with the elbows.

During rowing, you should think about pushing the elbows behind you and getting the shoulders blades together. This has the conseuence of making you stick your chest out. During the eccentric, the shoulders should move forwards a bit and they must come back during the concentric. Someone with tight pecs and front delts (again, too much benching) will tend to have problems with this and should stretch their pecs/front delts prior to every set of back.

During pulldowns, the elbows should be pushed down, the focus should be on letting the shoulders come up (and scapula elevate/rotate outwards) during the eccentric and push them down during the concentric.
</div>
 
wanna,

Initially back is trickier than other body parts to isolate when exercising, and tougher to get sore IMO.  Your arms can also play a pretty significant role in your back workouts, especially if you don't concentrate on flexing your back.  I would recommend some visualization techniques (such as ropes pulling your elbows back during rows) and to make sure technique is proper as Quad said.  The deadlift also works almost the entire back to some degree, so you should make sure you are using them as well as the more traditional Rows and Chins.  Also, if you pronate your grip to pullups, the biceps will be less activated and make the lats take more of the load...squeeze your back on every rep.  Practice without weight so you become aware of the feeling.
 
I guess I'm on the right track... pretty much said the same stuff at Tot
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<div>
(soflsun @ Apr. 20 2008,12:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">wanna,

Initially back is trickier than other body parts to isolate when exercising, and tougher to get sore IMO. Your arms can also play a pretty significant role in your back workouts, especially if you don't concentrate on flexing your back. I would recommend some visualization techniques (such as ropes pulling your elbows back during rows) and to make sure technique is proper as Quad said. The deadlift also works almost the entire back to some degree, so you should make sure you are using them as well as the more traditional Rows and Chins. Also, if you pronate your grip to pullups, the biceps will be less activated and make the lats take more of the load...squeeze your back on every rep. Practice without weight so you become aware of the feeling.</div>
agreed!


visualising techniques are a good way to develope proper form and to get a grasp of the muscles used in the movement.

rows chins and deads should be part of any back program imo.
 
Maybe if I use a wide grip, there will be less elbow flexion and more back involvement not just on pull ups but on barbell rows. Whatever, I'll read lyle's thread.

I dunno, I'm not so sure about deadlifts. I thought they target the glutes &amp; quads mostly. Come to think of it, the deadlift targets almost the same musculature as squats; and I do squats anyway. While I agree that you contract the traps and lower back isometrically, you don't work the rest of the upper back (lats, rhomboids etc.) as you don't retract your shoulder blades during the movement or bring the elbow closer to your torso. No? The only unique benefit I see from deadlifting is developing grip strength.

I still don't get why people adore the deadlift
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I know from reading the forums that this comment may be seen as heretical but I'll speak my mind anyway.
 
Wide grip can work well for some people to get them to use more back and less arm on row and pullups.
Deadlifts are the best exercise for the erectors and trapezius (the large muscles along the entire spine). They also work the entire musculature in the back in a isometric way. Also good for hamstrings, glutes and quadriceps (and forearms for grip). Thats the reason we like them, they hit a LOT of muscle groups all at once. After a deadlift workout half my body is 'done' so I save time from doing too many exercises per session.
 
If anything, the conventional deadlift emphasizes the back moreso than the legs. You are starting from a bent over position and straighten the back. Now if you are taking sumo deadlift, then yes, there is a lot less back involvement as the emphasis is shifted more toward the glutes and quads/hams.

If you doubt that deadlifts strongly work the traps and erectors, then you probably haven't done a lot of deadlifting.
 
Deads and squats are supposed to also be the best way to trigger hormone response. Many guys don't like them because they don't do them long enough to hit the groove, gain the strengths, and become addicted like most of us in here!
Exrx does have a lot of good information, but I have problems with the setups and some of the exersizes, like this high row for instance: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/CBSeatedHighRow.html
They should have set that up for &quot;general&quot; back work, since they have the gal doing erector work along with the upper back. That's fine for rowing a boat across a lake, but we like to specialize and save energy to really work specific targets. If I want erector work, it's in the deads and squats. If I want upper back, it's in the Pendlay's or barbell rows.
And disagreeing with some of the guys here, if I want traps, it's SHRUGS, done SheeyotHeavy that works for me, not deads. But if deads hit YOUR traps, then fine; just doesn't work well for me.
So there.
tounge.gif
 
Shrugs are great...I m just lazy as I posted above and prefer to hit everything I can with deads and be done with it.

Bryan Haycock himslef doesn't do deadlifts. Instead he does leg presses, squats, leg curls, extensions, etc. for legs and then shrugs for traps, rows and chins for lats.

He likes LOTS of exercises which is great, I just prefer to focus on a few compounds. And NOTHING is more of a compound than a deadlift!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I dunno, I'm not so sure about deadlifts...you don't work the rest of the upper back (lats, rhomboids etc.) as you don't retract your shoulder blades during the movement or bring the elbow closer to your torso. No?</div>

A very astute analysis. With a shoulder-width grip on the barbell there is very little scapular retraction. And it is momentary as one goes from bent over to vertical very quickly in the conventional deadlift. Thus the load is quickly transfered to the upper traps and levators. This is solvable: use a wider grip. and elevate yourself above the ground on which the barbell sits. Its called a Snatch Grip Deadlift. With the arms wide (ring finger on the smooth rings between the knurling) the scapula retract slightly and upwardly rotate. Because the distance between the shoulder and bar is reduced with a wider grip you are horizontal for more of each rep. Elevating yourself above the ground with plates, a platform, etcetera further increases the amount of time you spend horizontal. Your middle traps must contract isometrically to keep your scapula in this position.

It works.

I got into deadlifting because everywhere I read about it (HST Forum, T-Nation, StrengthMill, Muscle &amp; Fitness...) its touted as being a powerful exercise. It really works the obliques as well as the erector spinae. And it also involves the same muscles as the squat in addition to the grip. See why? For someone with a bent-over posture it is golden. I attest to this. The increased strength and neurogenic tone of the back and side musculature will have you standing taller. In T-Nation's Neanderthal No More series the deadlift, actually - the snatch grip deadlift - is recommended as a lift to balance out kyphosis, which is what you likely have and I have mostly gotten rid of.

My experience with the SGDL is that my obliques are often sore afterward and my middle back begins throbbing about 1-2 hrs later. So much so that I have to use sore muscle gel to function. This probably has something to do with pain causing tension causing more pain... something a physical therapist friend told me about. Anyway the end result is feeling like I can't breath freely. The sore muscle gel contains a topical anesthetic which stops all of that. It still hurts but more like what muscles usually hurt like. I found the muscle building effect to be pretty pronounced and pretty quick. After about 6 weeks I could see the division between my upper and middle traps. And that's without lighting tricks.

I found this lift after reading articles on deadlifting. It got mentioned a few times and then I read a good article introducing deadlifting and its variants. The author said snatch grips put on more muscle in the upper back. I figured WTH, might as well get all that I can. Charles Poliquin states it is, in his opinion, the single best mass builder. Take my testimony for what its worth and give the SGDL a try for 1 week, if only to prove me wrong. I think you will find it educational if nothing else. Best of luck to you.
 
P.S. Technical details.

Most people do squats and deads on different days. I do a MWF routine with an A/B split. So, one day I squat the next workout I deadlift. I do my deadlifts using Max-Stim. I have only heard good things on using MS with deadlifts on both this forum and the MS forum. Briefly, take your 10 RM weight and do it for 20 reps. You accomplish this by resting between each rep for 1 - 5 seconds. By rest is meant completely letting the weight rest on the ground. Because the SGDL *requires* straps due to the angle and such, I straighten my legs to let the blood flow while still attached to the bar. Then I get in position again, do a quick mental check of my posture and stance, and then perform the next 1 - 2 reps. I am recanting this to you so you know, in the spirit of science, what I do in case you want to duplicate or compare notes. I don't know what its like to SGDL for 10 continuous reps. The MS style seems to me to be superior.
 
I am not used to forums, so I dont know if its the convention to reply to several people in one post.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
They should have set that up for &quot;general&quot; back work, since they have the gal doing erector work along with the upper back. That's fine for rowing a boat across a lake, but we like to specialize and save energy to really work specific targets. If I want erector work, it's in the deads and squats. If I want upper back, it's in the Pendlay's or barbell rows.
And disagreeing with some of the guys here, if I want traps, it's SHRUGS, done SheeyotHeavy that works for me, not deads. But if deads hit YOUR traps, then fine; just doesn't work well for me. </div>

Quadancer, the high pulley row is in the general back section which implies that it works the erectors too (makes sense to me ). I think that exrx.net is excellent and 100x better than any muscle mag in terms of exercise instruction (i once read in M&amp;F that deadlifts work the delts  ) but I was wondering if exrx's information on which muscles are involved is accurate eg. they say that the lats are synergists in dips (which made me incredulous) or that the pec major is used in chins.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A very astute analysis.  With a shoulder-width grip on the barbell there is very little scapular retraction.  And it is momentary as one goes from bent over to vertical very quickly in the conventional deadlift.  Thus the load is quickly transfered to the upper traps and levators.  This is solvable:  use a wider grip.  and elevate yourself above the ground on which the barbell sits.  Its called a Snatch Grip Deadlift.  With the arms wide (ring finger on the smooth rings between the knurling) the scapula retract slightly and upwardly rotate.  Because the distance between the shoulder and bar is reduced with a wider grip you are horizontal for more of each rep.  Elevating yourself above the ground with plates, a platform, etcetera further increases the amount of time you spend horizontal.  Your middle traps must contract isometrically to keep your scapula in this position.

It works.

I got into deadlifting because everywhere I read about it (HST Forum, T-Nation, StrengthMill, Muscle &amp; Fitness...) its touted as being a powerful exercise.  It really works the obliques as well as the erector spinae.  And it also involves the same muscles as the squat in addition to the grip.  See why?  For someone with a bent-over posture it is golden.  I attest to this.  The increased strength and neurogenic tone of the back and side musculature will have you standing taller.  In T-Nation's Neanderthal No More series the deadlift, actually - the snatch grip deadlift - is recommended as a lift to balance out kyphosis, which is what you likely have and  I have mostly gotten rid of. </div>

Thats very interesting, Quantum. I'll try it but only in my next cycle of HST as I will need to find my maxes for that exercise. IF it can fix my slouching then I'm more than keen on it. It seems from what you're saying, that contracting the muscles isometrically under a heavy load is better than the usual concentric stuff?

But you describe the start of the conventional deadlift as horizontal when actually your torso is more like 60 degrees to the floor almost like a squat- at least thats the technique that I was taught. So there is even less involvement from the scapula retracting muscles. But regardless I will give SGDL  a go.

The only thing is that since you spend more time horizontal theres more pressure on your lower back and thus greater potential for injury and if I do incorporate SGDL with squats (alternating them ofcourse) maybe MY lower back won't be able to handle so much stress with the frequency of HST. Do you do HST by the way?

I don't know that much about max-stim. Ive seen it but I don't know it in much depth and I want to stick to basics for now.
 
There is no such thing as an isolation exercise for the back. Stick to a nice routine of rows, chins and dead lifts.
 
well actually, technically, there are isolation exercises for back like pullovers and there are methods of hitting the back more than the arms.
 
<div>
(wannagrow @ Apr. 21 2008,9:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">well actually, technically, there are isolation exercises for back like pullovers and there are methods of hitting the back more than the arms.</div>
Pullovers hit the back, arms and chest. That doesn't sound like an isolation movement to me.

Isolation exercises usually target an appendage, abs or shoulders. It's next to impossible to target just the chest or back.
 
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