Training upper back

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Pullovers hit the back, arms and chest.  That doesn't sound like an isolation movement to me.

Isolation exercises usually target an appendage, abs or shoulders.  It's next to impossible to target just the chest or back.

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By definition an isolation movement is an exercise involving only one joint, so in the case of pullovers, its the shoulder joint. You'll find that pretty much any other so-called isolation movement involves more than one muscle eg. dumbell flyes dont just target the pecs but also the anterior delts and the short head of the biceps brachii.

The pullovers if done with a wide grip ,like with a barbell as opposed to a dumbell, primarily work the lats as well as chest &amp; arms.
 
Its next to impossible to isolate most any muscle. What we usually call &quot;iso's&quot; don't typically isolate in the strict sense of working one and only one muscle. The triceps extension comes pretty close but it still involves the anconeus of the forearm. Its such a small muscle however, that it scarcely counts. Some experts claim it as the 4th head of the triceps. Side delt raises involve the pec minor. Front raises use the clavicular head and the coracobrachialis as synergists. Shrugs involve the levator, if not the sterncleidomastoid (sp?), and leg curls involve the gastrocenemius though you can alter their involvement by the extent of plantarflexion you keep throughout the rep. Flyes seem to pretty close. There is a lot of isometric action on the biceps, just to point that out. We often use isolation as the term to describe direct work. That's sort of misleading. A better way of saying it is emphasis or, as I just said, &quot;direct work.&quot;



<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But you describe the start of the conventional deadlift as horizontal when actually your torso is more like 60 degrees to the floor almost like a squat- at least thats the technique that I was taught. So there is even less involvement from the scapula retracting muscles.</div>

Correct. I wanted to keep things simple because usually when I start talking about angles I inevitably end up talking about vectors. Bear in mind that even with a conventional deadlift as the weight increases the seemingly insignificant amount of time spent at 60 degrees becomes increasingly potent for muscle building. The strength required to retract the scapular during a 500 lb deadlift is greater than the strength needed to retract the scapula for a 200 lb deadlift. That strength brings with it a corresponding increase in size. This brings me to a good point you brought up:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It seems from what you're saying, that contracting the muscles isometrically under a heavy load is better than the usual concentric stuff? </div>

Research finds isometrics to be at least equivalent to dynamic lifting (concentric + eccentric through a full R.O.M.) for hypertrophy purposes. Having used isometrics exclusively for a time I can tell you from experience they are good muscle builders. There are many variations and ways to use them. I have used them on my wrist flexors with good results. The upside of isometrics is the higher loads one can use. The downside is that the strength developed is specific to ~15-20 degrees of the joint angle at which the isometric is performed. They have their uses in both strength and hypertrophy programs. See functional isometrics and isometrics for sticking points for more info.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only thing is that since you spend more time horizontal theres more pressure on your lower back...</div>

So long as you keep your spine neutral, you should be O.K. If getting on the platform causes you to lose neutral spine then its a safe bet that you should refrain from using a platform (or any form of elevation). Just doing the SGDL w/o elevation usually fatigues my lower erectors and I'm ok with that. As for back pain pertaining to the spine - none. Every person is unique so of course feel it out.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">maybe MY lower back won't be able to handle so much stress with the frequency of HST.</div>

Maybe. Learning about what your body can take and how it responds is part of the process. You'll probably find out in the first 3 weeks how much deadlifting you can handle. I do it 1 - 2x per week myself. Be optimistic. If it works you'll have a new tool and the muscle that comes with it.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Do you do HST by the way?</div>

Currently I'm between gyms (previous one got too greedy). When I set up shop I'll be back into Max-Stim and PITT-Force as I was before. A few months from now I will rotate into Westside. After that, who knows. I have an Olympic routine on my list as well.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was wondering if exrx's information on which muscles are involved is accurate eg. they say that the lats are synergists in dips (which made me incredulous) or that the pec major is used in chins.</div>

The lats assists in scapular depression which is part of dipping, especially if you push your shoulders as downward as possible at the top of a dip (that, BTW, is full dip R.O.M.). Remember that muscles pull and that lats originate in the lower back region and insert into the upper humerus. Does it seem reasonable they can pull the humerus downward? As for the pec major and chins, the pec can adduct the humerus. Today or tommorrow--whenever you work out--grab a high pully and do a reverse side raise, essentially humeral adduction. Increase the weight to something akin to a workout. You'll feel it. Pecs are also involved in humeral extension which is what pullovers, close grip chin/pullups, and rows are. The extent of their involvement and their contribution is not disclosed.

I have cross-checked some of exrx.net's kinesiological sections with books at a local university library. They need more detail and explanation, especially about the extent of each muscles involvement, but in general they were correct.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> IF it can fix my slouching then I'm more than keen on it.</div>

Deadlifts are one part of the equation. I have used the stretches and bodyweight exercises from the Neanderthal No More article series at T-nation.com for the past 6 weeks. It works like a charm. Long story short, functional kyphosis is the result of muscle strength and activity imbalances occuring in key groups from head to toe, not just the back. These imbalances feed into and reinforce each other. The use of stretches relaxes over active muscles while the use of weight lifts strengthens under active ones. After 3 weeks of doing the stretches and bodyweight exercises my posture was markedly improved. Several women I know told me I look taller. The Neanderthal No More series spans 5 articles so it is a long read but its worth it. Unless your slouching is due to structural issues, as in your spine is deformed, the program will likely work. Since you understand kinesiology it will make a lot of sense to you. One of the authors is getting his masters in Kinesiology. He explains postural deficit in these terms. Good luck.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> IF it can fix my slouching then I'm more than keen on it.</div>

Stiff-Legged Deadlifts or Romanian Deadlifts can help here in place of a traditional deadlift. These lifts emphasize the hamstrings and glutes in addition to the erector spinae. It is the opinion of many lifters that SL deadlifts are better for the hamstrings than leg curls. You can also try Good Mornings, which the world-class powerlifters of Westside Barbell swear by for driving up squat and deadlift strength.

I began with SLDL's and later switched to Good Mornings. The reason being that often times my mid to upper back would still be sore from Snatch Grip Deadlifts the workout day before. Not only that but I chose SLDLs for the primary hamstring building lift thinking I would get a little scapular retraction work as well. Once my S. Grip Deads went up the Stiff-Leggeds became obsolete for back building purposes, soreness or not. Since Westside swears by GM's, and since upper back needs the rest and gets no percievable benefit from Stiff-leggeds, I switched to GM's. I do them in a power rack for reasons of safety.
 
I'd go with soflsun, on pulling exercises I always got told to try focusing on moving your elbows back/down as opposed to just moving the weight. This apparently takes the focus away from using the biceps?

I used to just stack every machine, i had wide lats, but the worst inner back development in the gym. Now i take the weight right down and ensure i feel the movement in every muscle.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You see I'm weak and I can only do 5 pull ups (bw) so when I build up to pull ups I do cable pulldowns instead.</div>

This could be one of the problems, you need to build up strength to do chin ups (not pull ups) as the chins have a pronated position (hands towards you) and therefore by including the biceps, increase your strength and at the same time increase the stretch because of the position of the humerus.

Now we all know that a muscle grows better when stretched under load, so if you do teh chins properly you'd be able to add some weight albeit little initially you'll build up.

What's more for upper back short of repeating others (deadlift and all that), I would say you need to do some bent over rowing, that will get your upper back going, there is also the high cable rows. And of course load increase each workout!
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QP, I didn't know you're an olympic lifter. That's pretty cool.
How long you been lifting altogether for?

I agree with pretty much everything you said except for your love affair with good-mornings. I used to do them and it felt awkward and I felt it more in one hamstring than the other. Its just so much compression force on your lower back even if you keep your spine neutral- you see, I made every effort to keep my back straight/ naturally arched without rounding for EVERY single rep and despite this I had for a month or so an uncomfortable feeling in the middle part of my back, so much so that I had to bend over to reduce the sensation. Another problem I find with GMs is that they heavily work the glutes and my glutes get enough work from squats.

Leg curls are simple, they can't possibly hurt your back and are the perfect addition to squats in exercising the lower body. Bryan uses leg curls
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Now SLDLs just look scary. The idea of keeping your knees straight when theres a weight pulling forward, its just gonna cause a whole host of problems in my view.

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This could be one of the problems, you need to build up strength to do chin ups (not pull ups) as the chins have a pronated position (hands towards you) and therefore by including the biceps, increase your strength and at the same time increase the stretch because of the position of the humerus.

Now we all know that a muscle grows better when stretched under load, so if you do teh chins properly you'd be able to add some weight albeit little initially you'll build up.

What's more for upper back short of repeating others (deadlift and all that), I would say you need to do some bent over rowing, that will get your upper back going, there is also the high cable rows. And of course load increase each workout!
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Fausto, do you think that if I begin doing chins and build up enough strength with those, that I'll be able to start doing pull-ups even though its a completely different movement and the fact that chins work your back and biceps equally when I want more emphasis on the lats not the biceps. I reckon I can do 8 bodyweight chins in good form, so how do you think I can incorporate that into HST?

Maybe, I'll do chins and drop bicep curls.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Its next to impossible to isolate most any muscle. What we usually call &quot;iso's&quot; don't typically isolate in the strict sense of working one and only one muscle.</div>

Well said QP... even isolation exercises like the curl, leg extension, calf raise, sit-up and shrug all hit multiple muscles.
 
Let's be clear Fausto, and say pronated is hands facing away from you, and supinated is palms facing. Unless someone turned the world around on me...oh waitaminnit, you live down on the bottom don't you? Hey, does the toilet water really spin in the other direction down there?
Some things in life are just necessary to know.
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Ok...ok...Quad I actually was not sure, it is suppinated I wanted to write.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto, do you think that if I begin doing chins and build up enough strength with those, that I'll be able to start doing pull-ups even though its a completely different movement and the fact that chins work your back and biceps equally when I want more emphasis on the lats not the biceps. I reckon I can do 8 bodyweight chins in good form, so how do you think I can incorporate that into HST? </div>

Yes, I definitelly think so, mind you chins, which is a suppinated grip not pronated as Quad corrected me, does make your lats grow, because of the strectched position of the humerus, and a muscle grows better in a loaded stretched position.

Your best ilustration would be to check in ex-rx.net and see what muscles are hit with this exercise as opposed to with the pullups.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Maybe, I'll do chins and drop bicep curls. </div>

Its a god idea, I still do curls but pay minimal importance to them as I hit them hard with chins.
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(wannagrow @ Apr. 22 2008,10:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now SLDLs just look scary. The idea of keeping your knees straight when theres a weight pulling forward, its just gonna cause a whole host of problems in my view.</div>
Don't keep your knees locked. They should be unlocked slightly which enables your hams to have better leverage (you'll feel less strain on the tendons running behind your knees ). Your hip rotation should improve too which will allow you to keep your lowerback in a neutral position at the lowest point. Don't stand on a platform either and unlike regular deadlifts don't deload between reps (ie. don't set the bar down on the floor once the weights reach the ground). Same thing applies to RDLs. To start a set of SLDLs or RDLs either regular deadlift the weight to the top position or lift the bar from rack pins like you would for shrugs.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Leg curls are simple, they can't possibly hurt your back and are the perfect addition to squats in exercising the lower body.</div>

Tip:

Point toes away (plantarflexion) = less gastroc involvement.

Point toes towards/neutral (dorsiflexion) = more gastroc involvement.

You can vary the toe position in the middle of the rep. An example would be dorsiflexion for the concentric and then plantarflexion for the eccentric. This is sort of amounts to an accentuated eccentric for the hamstrings.

Leg curls work the short head of the biceps femoris in addition to the other 3 hamstrings. This is signifcant because the short head does not activate in hip extension (Good Mornings, Deadlifts of all kinds, Squats, Leg Presses). The reason is that it is &quot;uniarticulate&quot;, originating on the femur and inserting into the tibia and fibula. According to Wikipedia sometimes people don't have a short head or sometimes have additional heads. If that blows your mind, 10% of the population has a third head in biceps brachii. Gray notes that occasional cadavers have had as many as 6. Talk about the proverbial Freak Of Nature/Genetic Marvel. But I digress... The Biceps Femoris Long Head is a poor knee flexor when the hips are extended (Read: Lying Leg Curl), so if you make leg curls a staple be sure to do them seated as well.

Glute-Ham raises are an undernoticed lift. The hamstrings must maintain the hip joint while flexing the knee. I have never gotten sore in my gastrocs from leg curls but I have from Glute-Ham Raises. There is a small research pool on the compartmentalization of muscle tissue. If it turns out that there are functional compartments in the gastroc then the G.H. Raise may be thought of as a calf exercise. At any rate, if you are into exploring the notion of Multiple Angle Training you cannot overlook the gastroc's dual role as plantarflexor AND knee flexor.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now SLDLs just look scary. The idea of keeping your knees straight when theres a weight pulling forward, its just gonna cause a whole host of problems in my view.
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I prefer not to lock my knees. Some time ago I read a good article written by a physical therapist who recommends SLDL's to his patients on a weekly basis for certain kinds of back pain. He does a few hundred pounds himself. When it comes to new lifts always start out light to minimize injuries due to bad form, new-at-this factor, etc. Make the goal of the first 2 sessions with a new lift to just learn and get the feel of the lift. I don't think its going to hurt you.

Combining leg curls with a hip extension movement like SLDL or GM's is a reasonable strategy. If SLDL's and GM's are not your thing (you must try them first!) then do leg presses with your feet at the top of the plate about 1/2 way off (go instinctive on this one). This is also hip extension. In fact, the ROM on this kind of leg press sort of compliments the ROM on SLDL/GM's. Your trouble with G.M.'s may stem from the arch/slouch in your back. When I started the Snatch Grip Deadlift I hadn't yet improved my posture. After 1 - 2 hrs when the DOMS would kick in I could pop the vertebrate in my middle back just by taking a deep breath. I suspect this was due to posture because now I cannot do it at all, even after a day in front of the computer.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How long you been lifting altogether for?</div>

Since I was 12, maybe 13. I stopped for a while my last 1/2 of college then picked it up again in early '07. I'm almost 28 now. So....8-9 years maybe? Give or take a few months from injuries (head injury at 16, achilles tendonitis last year, etc..).

Olympic lifting is something I aim to study. I don't compete in it.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, I definitelly think so, mind you chins... does make your lats grow, because of the strectched position of the humerus....</div>

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...I duuuuunno about this. Is it at the dead hang portion that the lats are more stretched with the chin?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Point toes away (plantarflexion) = less gastroc involvement.

Point toes towards/neutral (dorsiflexion) = more gastroc involvement.</div>

Could you clarify. Point the toes away from what?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Leg curls work the short head of the biceps femoris in addition to the other 3 hamstrings. This is signifcant because the short head does not activate in hip extension (Good Mornings, Deadlifts of all kinds, Squats, Leg Presses). The reason is that it is &quot;uniarticulate&quot;, originating on the femur and inserting into the tibia and fibula. According to Wikipedia sometimes people don't have a short head or sometimes have additional heads. If that blows your mind, 10% of the population has a third head in biceps brachii. Gray notes that occasional cadavers have had as many as 6. Talk about the proverbial Freak Of Nature/Genetic Marvel. But I digress... The Biceps Femoris Long Head is a poor knee flexor when the hips are extended (Read: Lying Leg Curl), so if you make leg curls a staple be sure to do them seated as well.</div>

I guess you kind of proved the point that leg curls are essential because hip extension doesn't activate the short head. What? 6 heads of the biceps brachii?? They were really lucky with such freakishly huge arms lol

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Combining leg curls with a hip extension movement like SLDL or GM's is a reasonable strategy. If SLDL's and GM's are not your thing (you must try them first!) then do leg presses with your feet at the top of the plate about 1/2 way off (go instinctive on this one). This is also hip extension. In fact, the ROM on this kind of leg press sort of compliments the ROM on SLDL/GM's. Your trouble with G.M.'s may stem from the arch/slouch in your back. When I started the Snatch Grip Deadlift I hadn't yet improved my posture. After 1 - 2 hrs when the DOMS would kick in I could pop the vertebrate in my middle back just by taking a deep breath. I suspect this was due to posture because now I cannot do it at all, even after a day in front of the computer.</div>

Well I'm pleased to hear that its actually possible to rid oneself of the slouch. The reason I started training was to correct my posture initially but that didn't prove too succesful as you can tell.

The thing is that GMs combined with leg curls is too many exercises just to target one muscle. I do squats below parrallel so my posterior chain gets a lot of work from that, I can even feel it in the gastrocs (which I didn't expect).

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">

Since I was 12, maybe 13. I stopped for a while my last 1/2 of college then picked it up again in early '07. I'm almost 28 now. So....8-9 years maybe? Give or take a few months from injuries (head injury at 16, achilles tendonitis last year, etc..).

Olympic lifting is something I aim to study. I don't compete in it.</div>

Wow, imagine if you trained for nine years straight you'd be huge. I myself only started training properly with free weights since October of 07. I cant be bothered to count how many months that is lol.

Whats there to study in Oly lifting?. You just have to practice the variations of the C&amp;J and snatch regularly becuase apparently since there is no eccentric contraction in Oly, you recover faster.
 
Since the forum experts are watching this thread I'll ask: on my first GM's yesterday I went up to 135 on the bar...but had trouble keeping my knees straight. Is this an issue or a sign on anything?
Nicely, the back feels fine today. No DOMS, or stiffness.
Also, I could do much more weight. Suggestions?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Could you clarify. Point the toes away from what?</div>

Your body. By pointing the toes away I mean like at the top of a heel/calf raise. That's plantarflexion. Dorsiflexion is its opposite. Its pulling the foot &quot;up&quot; like when you are tapping your foot to music. Dorsiflexion stretches the calves. Plantarflexion flexes them. With the dorsiflexion you needn't go far beyond neutral. In my GH work I often can't. Stretching the gastroc at its insertion would seem to detract from its knee flexing ability.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said toes. Its really more like the feet.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Whats there to study in Oly lifting?</div>

Getting the grip down. Learning the movements. Improving the technique. That's what comes to my mind. I won't know until I get into it. I reckon I'll try some different programs. I am curious to see how my legs and shoulders respond to Olympic style lifting.
 
Just as incline Bench has a way of getting lifters used to and &quot;clicking&quot; with proper leg drive which can then be carried over (once &quot;used to&quot;) to flat bench , doing rows in the form of chest supported rows can get a lifter used to and clicking with the proper &quot;feel&quot; of a strictly performed row - once you've accomplished this - transfering the correct form and feel to regular rows is easy and in fact once the connection is made with the lats on the &quot;feel&quot; level you will feel them in deads , benching and all kinds of lifts. Even a barbell rolled under a flat bench , while limited in range of motion can be used to accomplish this.
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For upper back specifically , incline shrugs added to the usual back suspects are a tremendous mass builder. Facing down on a 45 degree bench you perform shrugs -simple but crazy effective.,
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...but had trouble keeping my knees straight. Is this an issue or a sign on anything?</div>

At a certain point in my GM ROM my knees begin to lock and then begin to feel like they are being pushed backwards. This isn't a good feeling so for that reason I always keep bend in my knees and let that dictate my ROM.

I have found that after a set or two it becomes difficult to rotate solely around the hip. As fatigue sets in I end up bending over more at the lower back. This isn't what I want since I use GMs for hamstring development.

This topic did not get much love the first time I brought it up, but the hamstrings are predominantly FT:
http://ajs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/2/98
That being said they may tire quickly. Charles Poliquin, I hope, knows hamstrings as it is an important muscle group in many sports. He suggests short, brief sets. I just cleared things up with my gym today so I will be back in business soon. I will work with a heavier weight for less reps in the near future, aiming for a good hip extension. Hopefully this is what I need. Its still a new lift to me.

When I was reading on SLDLs the question of flexibility came up often. Maybe looking there?...
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well I'm pleased to hear that its actually possible to rid oneself of the slouch. The reason I started training was to correct my posture initially but that didn't prove too succesful as you can tell.</div>

Lifts: dip shrugs, something for spinal erectors - deadlift, GM - something..., rows like crazy, external rotation like crazy, and lunges. Plenty of lunges. Crazy deep rear knee 1 inch from the ground really stretched out back straight all weight on the forward leg lunges....and certainly a few I forgot. Oh yeah...hip flexors. Crunches and situps and everything else like that. Portions of your glute complex, scapular depressors, hip flexors, and some other stuff are poorly activated. You need to wake them up, so to speak.

Stretches: Stretch the upper traps, levators, chest, lats, piriformis, calves, hip adductors, rectus femoris, sternocledomastoid (sp?) and all cervical flexors, some other muscles in the back though not your middle traps, and especially your lower back. Oh, and some more I forgot. They're all overactive pulling you into bad posture.

How functional kyphosis works: Anterior pelvic tilt occurs, weakening hip flexors and shortening the lower back. The downward bearing pelvis forces the femurs and knees to rotate inward which causes the feet rotate outward. Consequently the glutes and hamstrings become underactive, the hip adductors shorten, and the calves as well. Above the waist the mid to upper spine arches forward to maintain an S-curve. This causes the scapula to protact (move forward) shortening the pec major and pec minor and lengthening the external rotators and the scapular retractors. As the scapula protracts its slides upward shortening the upper trapezius and the levators. Consequently the scapular depressors become artifically lengthened and then weakened. With your trapezius riding up your neck the cervical spine cranes forward giving a forward leaning neck. The masseter (sp?) of the jaw contracts isometrically along with some other neck muscles as a result. Interestingly the treatment of cervical spine disorders has proven beneficial for TMJ, Merrier's Disease (sp?), and Bruxism. Chiropractors have been talking about it for a while longer but no one in conservative medicine listens to them.

There can be other complications or less then what I have written here. What I know pertains to my own case but may pertain to yours. Again, the Neanderthal No More article series at T-nation.com, which is all about correting posture, discusses these things. You need to go there and read the articles. Its the best starting point I know. Also search Google for &quot;kyphosis&quot; or &quot;functional kyphosis.&quot;
 
Hey Russ, good to see you posting again. I like the idea of incline shrugs and may get around to giving them a try during this cycle. I can't quite picture how I'm going to get the weight off the rack pins/rods in that position at the start of a set. It might become obvious when I give it a go.
 
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