Using a safety machine

[Richard Berg]

For the forseeable future, I see myself using a rack to do squats and bench presses. The former because I don't trust my balance with or without safety bars, and the latter because I won't have a spotter 90% of the time.

I normally wouldn't worry about it, but rather recently when I was trying out a different gym I had to use a normal barbell holder for bench. Despite using a weight well under what I was used to, I found it much more difficult to keep things stable than I was used to. Was my previous training indeed neglecting stabilizer muscles, or was I just plain weak? (had been unable to work out for a few months prior)

Interestingly, this site lists more muscles than the basic Squat...

 

[Scythe]

Good question. I normally workout at home (due to work hours), so I invested in a smith machine with most of the other stuff you can find. (lat pulldown, pec deck, dip bar, etc.).

Since I workout at home, and 99% I am by myself, it made sense from a safety standpoint since I can prevent injury if the bar slips, drops, etc.

I'd be interested if there's any decrease in the effectiveness of the exercise too.

 

[imported_ghostrider]

Quote[/b] (Scythe @ Jan. 11 2004,5:51)]so I invested in a smith machine with most of the other stuff you can find. (lat pulldown, pec deck, dip bar, etc.).

I wouldn't do squat with the smith machine. It seems to me that the 'route' it gives to the body, it's too unnatural.

 

[Scythe]

Good point! I have a regular bar that I can use. I'll give that a shot.

 

[imported_da1andonlychacha]

Your best bet is free weights for a number of reasons. Using a smith or other sort of machine is going to isolate a specific muscle and not work any of your stabilizers. This results in less muscle being recruited and less functional strength being built. If you think you have weak stabilizers, you should sometimes use dumbells to do benching exercises, and squats with lower weights. Also, strengthening your abs and lower back will help you on the squat. Strengthening the lats and rear delts will help on the bench. The vast bulk of your workout routine should consist of multi-joint free weight exercises.

 

[Kate]

Hiya, Richard!

Whenever I answer a question related to lifting, I start by thinking about two things: A. What is my primary goal? and B. Does the benefit outweigh the risk?

If your primary goal is to be a strong freeweight bench presser, then yes, you lose a lot by using the smith machine. By its nature, the machine locks you into two planes of motion. When you take away the machine, you are creating new shearing forces on the muscles that have been stabilizing and most likely calling in some stabilizers that aren't used to working.

If on the other hand, your primary goal is hypertrophy, you may actually gain by using the machine. As you've said, the machine allows you to self spot and keeps you from worrying about balance. Also, the easier it is for you to load a particular muscle, the less you involve your nervous system and the easier it is to stay well short of failure.

My thinking about machines and free weights and stability work has changed quite a bit thanks to what I've learned here at this site. I think it is good to challenge the core and strengthen stabilizers, just for real life strength. But I now save that stuff for my maintenance workout and do a lot more machine work for my HST.

As far as risk vs. benefit, I am much more comfortable recommending presses on the smith than I am squats. I know that Blade has done sissy squats with the smith, as have I. They work great with good form. The downside is that if your form breaks down, you are in a good position to be crumpled under the weight. You cannot shift to save your balance or dump the bar in any but one direction.

I've seen several big guys hurt their backs this way.

An experienced lifter with no low back issues should be fine as long as s/he remains concious of form.

Happy hypertrophy!
Kate

 

[imported_formula1]

Quote[/b] ]I found it much more difficult to keep things stable than I was used to. Was my previous training indeed neglecting stabilizer muscles, or was I just plain weak? (had been unable to work out for a few months prior)

Well, both, if your previous training had not included regular BB bench presses. Any type of exercise is going to require some degree of motor learning - free weight movements often require the most. So if you are "out of practice," or have never done them at all, you will necessarily go through a [re]learning phase. Of course, being away from training entirely for several months would also result in some loss of strength, as well.

Quote[/b] ]I wouldn't do squat with the smith machine. It seems to me that the 'route' it gives to the body, it's too unnatural.

Proper form in the squat is equally possible in both the smith machine and with the barbell. The problem, more often, is improper use of the smith machine, a use which is often perpetuated by misinformed trainers that smith-machine squats should be performed differently than barbell squats.

 

[Guest]

Those of you with longer legs and shorter trunks often have trouble balancing on squats (wife calls me Barney Rubble

, so I can squat a lot with no trouble). You should try hack squats (barbell hanging behind you), duck squats (barbell hanging between your legs, one hand in front, one behind) or squats with dumbells in each hand. Obviously, if you use any of these, you should use lifting straps since you'll be gripping a ton of weight (they're cheap and a good investment for use on heavy deadlifts, too). And as far as I'm concerned, nothing is as good as free weights for strength or for hypertrophy. The stress you put on stabilizers with free weights serves to benefit you in both ways. The effectiveness you lose with any type of machine can be most easily observed in the difference in the weight you can Leg Press versus the weight you can Squat- a huge difference, even if you don't have balance issues or back problems. However, safety is paramount. If you get injured, you'll lose everything you've gained while healing, and you may never be the same again. And even us total free weight junkies will use machines for a change or on certain exercises. So it's a personal choice. And you lose less with a Smith machine than you will using other types of machines; as long as you stay in the proper groove, the main difference is strength differential from left to right. So toss in those dumbell presses every now and then and you'll know if you're cheating one side or the other (a little strength difference is normal for your dominant side, a lot isn't).

 

[argive99]

I believe Arthur Jones called his Nautilus machines (and all exercise machines in general) "scientific barbells." My gym has the latest Hammer machines as well as some of the best King an Flex equipment. I'm tempted to say that with exercise equipment like this who need regular free weights. But I see that there is a preference for free weights among HSTers mainly because it seems so many train from home. What is the general opinion on this? What is best for HST if you have access to it?

 

[spikehead]

One of my arms is slightly longer than the other which I'm told is quite common. Since the bar on the Smith machine is designed to be perfectly parallel to the ground, does anyone know if using it for bench press would lead to asymmetric muscle development?

 

[Stretchman]

Quote[/b] (argive99 @ Mar. 04 2004,7:12)]I believe Arthur Jones called his Nautilus machines (and all exercise machines in general) "scientific barbells." My gym has the latest Hammer machines as well as some of the best King an Flex equipment. I'm tempted to say that with exercise equipment like this who need regular free weights. But I see that there is a preference for free weights among HSTers mainly because it seems so many train from home. What is the general opinion on this? What is best for HST if you have access to it?

Nautilus produced very good gains for athletes. It followed the natural course of the muscle strength. But, if you want to be big, you shoudl really use what everyone else has had the best success with. Free weights. Get a really solid bench, a squat rack ( So you can do squats freely, but it will catch the weight if you fail. Not a half rack either. You don't want it to bounce when your knee pops and roll over your head ) and a decent set of DBs to go with it.

The best exercises are chins, dips, bench press, squats, and deads. They are all coumpound exercises, and will improve your smaller muscle groups by making the bigger ones bigger. The compound exercises are best for that. Isolation work can be done with DBs, and improve your lifts in general, if used like they are supposed to. With a gym like that, you can train any way you want to, and still be reasonanly safe. You can even use the cage to hold the bar when you are doing benches, and keep yourself from getting crushed.

However, if it's not in the budget, we used to rubber band a towel to the middle of the regular bar to give it a cushion if we dropped it on our heads. Aslo made it easier to roll out from underneath. Also worked better for squats. You can get a 170 lb set and a bench at your local bargain mill for under 100 bux, and still do all the exercises listed above. May not be enough weight for some but it will work.

Stretch

 

[alexx]

Quote[/b] (spikehead @ May 14 2004,6:54)]One of my arms is slightly longer than the other which I'm told is quite common. Since the bar on the Smith machine is designed to be perfectly parallel to the ground, does anyone know if using it for bench press would lead to asymmetric muscle development?

I don't have any scientific proof of that ,but my my left arm is longer than the right one and my left peck bigger. I use smith machine for incline press only;