I
imported_dkm1987
Guest
No it's not, do the math.[b said:
Whey at 29 dollars (cheap brand) per 5.5 Pound with 86 servings at 18 grams per serving comes out to 1.8 cents per gram of protein
One box of Dried Skim Milk @ 8 dollars with 30 serving (1 cup powder) @ 24 Grams protein (mostly casein) comes out to 1.1 cents per gram of protein
To equivilize the protein
1.8 cents multipled by 24 = 43.2 cents per 24 grams Whey Protein
1.1 cents multiplied by 24 =26.4 cents per 24 grams Casein protein
So for 24 grams of protein Casein is cheaper by 16.8 cents.
Now to further show the difference, based on the studies I recited. To equivilize the steady state of Aminos.
Casein acheives a 7 hour (roughly) steady state Amino delivery
Whey at 2 Hours (roughly) so whey would be needed 3.5 times as frequently as casein to acheive the same balance.
So assuming this is all you ingested daily (granted this is a huge assumption)
Your money outlay for the same amino delivery would be
24/2=12 X 43.2 = $5.18
24/7=3.43 X 26.4 cents = $.91
Check my math, if I am wrong let me know.
As far as Flax, simply for the added EFA content.
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imported_dkm1987
Guest
I am comparing apples to apples, protein, however it's derived is protein. I'm not concerned with the additional or lack of lactose.
Like has been said it's a mute point since obviously no one can say that whey is better or casein is better, it comes down to choice.
Thanks for the replies Guys
Like has been said it's a mute point since obviously no one can say that whey is better or casein is better, it comes down to choice.
Thanks for the replies Guys
I know you are trying to just let this thread die, but I thought it worth mentioning that "protein" is not just "protein" any more than carbs are just carbs. I think that is the point Aaron was trying to make.[b said:Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Aug. 11 2004,2:53)]I am comparing apples to apples, protein, however it's derived is protein. I'm not concerned with the additional or lack of lactose.
Like has been said it's a mute point since obviously no one can say that whey is better or casein is better, it comes down to choice.
Thanks for the replies Guys
In your defense, when comparing the cost of powdered milk to "milk protein isolate", powdered milk is clearly cheaper. This is because it requires very little processing to produce powdered milk compared to "milk protein isolate".
Here are some references dealing with the point Aaron was making. Not that you aren't already aware of them, I am just adding them here for others who might not be.
1: Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.
2: Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
3: Dangin M, Guillet C, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Bouteloup-Demange C, Reiffers-Magnani K, Fauquant J, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The rate of protein digestion affects protein gain differently during aging in humans. J Physiol. 2003 Jun 1;549(Pt 2):635-44.
4: Dangin M, Boirie Y, Guillet C, Beaufrere B. Influence of the protein digestion rate on protein turnover in young and elderly subjects. J Nutr. 2002 Oct;132(10):3228S-33S.
5: Fruhbeck G. Protein metabolism. Slow and fast dietary proteins. Nature. 1998 Feb 26;391(6670):843, 845.
6: Daenzer M, Petzke KJ, Bequette BJ, Metges CC. Whole-body nitrogen and splanchnic amino acid metabolism differ in rats fed mixed diets containing casein or its corresponding amino acid mixture. J Nutr. 2001 Jul;131(7):1965-72.
I
imported_dkm1987
Guest
Yes, I agree Bryan and not trying to drag this out any longer, but honestly the only difference I see, based on the Dangin and other studies I cite and you acknowledge is the availabilty of the aminos over differing time frames, so if timed appropriately does it really make a difference? Other than that the body will use what it can and expel the remaining, no matter if whey or casein, liquid or whole food.
Bryan and Aaron said what I have said. Also no whey I have ever seen is that "unpure" as your example unless it is the lowest od quality. A standard scoop will hold approx. 26 grams of "x" powder. At least 23g+ should be protein. Do you really want to get into the benefits of flax oil versus a fish oil now?
What is your point with elimination of "excess" protein?
What is your point with elimination of "excess" protein?
[b said:
[b said:
No, because there are other factors that have to be taken into account when comparing. For example, red meat and chicken are nearly identical in terms of protein content (on a per gram basis) and AA profile. But red meat provides more zinc, iron, B12 but may also contain more saturated fat and calories.
Same for whey protein (pure protein, no extra calories or carbs) to powdered milk (extra calories, carbs and lactose). What if yo'ure on a low-carb diet, or lactose intolerant, or trying to control calories: those two protein sources are NOT the same and NOT comparable.
You can't JUST look at the protein content when comparing proteins.
[b said:
Nope, it's about application, NOT choice.
And I can say which is better when.
Whey is better when you need fast absorption/digestion. For example before, during and/or after workouts. Casein or any other slowly digesting protein would be a big mistake at those times. Well, unless you really like throwing up.
Casein (compared only to whey) is better the rest of the time. Casein is superior to whey when dieting.
If you're eating every 3 hours, it won't make an ounce of difference.
Lyle
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imported_dkm1987
Guest
To answer Lyle
So show me where it is studied and proven that whey is better than casein, for 1. Maintaining a higher Nitrogen Balance over time 2.Improves Leucine balance better than casein. Which is what I originally asked to begin with.
I know whey absorps quicker and increases Amino content in blood quicker, this was never my question, nor do I question the premise.
What I question is, if you time casein ingestion accordingly, let's say 1 to 2 hours before workout, which from what I see is when the aminos are at their peak, is there truly any reason to use whey? Is it significant?
Cliner9er
See Nutrition Label Below
Ok, I really didn't have any concern about if some one was on a low carb, or they are lactose intolerant, I am not suggesting anyone do this, I am merely asking a question which for some reason got extremely bastardized.[b said:
So show me where it is studied and proven that whey is better than casein, for 1. Maintaining a higher Nitrogen Balance over time 2.Improves Leucine balance better than casein. Which is what I originally asked to begin with.
I know whey absorps quicker and increases Amino content in blood quicker, this was never my question, nor do I question the premise.
What I question is, if you time casein ingestion accordingly, let's say 1 to 2 hours before workout, which from what I see is when the aminos are at their peak, is there truly any reason to use whey? Is it significant?
Cliner9er
Are you saying HSN is low quality?[b said:
No I take both, plus CLA, which I never brought up importance or non-importance of Flax to begin with.[b said:
No point, just that your body uses what it can and eliminates the rest, whether whey, egg, casein or whatever.[b said:
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imported_dkm1987
Guest
Actually I think I found my answer here[b said:Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ Aug. 11 2004,5:07)]I know you are trying to just let this thread die, but I thought it worth mentioning that "protein" is not just "protein" any more than carbs are just carbs. I think that is the point Aaron was trying to make.[b said:Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Aug. 11 2004,2:53)]I am comparing apples to apples, protein, however it's derived is protein. I'm not concerned with the additional or lack of lactose.
Like has been said it's a mute point since obviously no one can say that whey is better or casein is better, it comes down to choice.
Thanks for the replies Guys
In your defense, when comparing the cost of powdered milk to "milk protein isolate", powdered milk is clearly cheaper. This is because it requires very little processing to produce powdered milk compared to "milk protein isolate".
Here are some references dealing with the point Aaron was making. Not that you aren't already aware of them, I am just adding them here for others who might not be.
1: Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.
2: Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
3: Dangin M, Guillet C, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Bouteloup-Demange C, Reiffers-Magnani K, Fauquant J, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The rate of protein digestion affects protein gain differently during aging in humans. J Physiol. 2003 Jun 1;549(Pt 2):635-44.
4: Dangin M, Boirie Y, Guillet C, Beaufrere B. Influence of the protein digestion rate on protein turnover in young and elderly subjects. J Nutr. 2002 Oct;132(10):3228S-33S.
5: Fruhbeck G. Protein metabolism. Slow and fast dietary proteins. Nature. 1998 Feb 26;391(6670):843, 845.
6: Daenzer M, Petzke KJ, Bequette BJ, Metges CC. Whole-body nitrogen and splanchnic amino acid metabolism differ in rats fed mixed diets containing casein or its corresponding amino acid mixture. J Nutr. 2001 Jul;131(7):1965-72.
Supplement: Protein Metabolism in Response to Ingestion Pattern and Composition of Proteins
Regulation of Muscle Protein by Amino Acids
Robert R. Wolfe
Since I already knew that whey increased Amino concentrations, but when reading the summary of that review, one more issue became clearer.
[b said:
So in effect I have answered by own question.
Again thanks to all who replied
Read the ingredients of driver
there is more in there than just protein alone, flavour, various other stuff.
and also its a protein blend, so you get slightly better taste, more bioactive compounds than isolates (ion exchange/microfiltration generally) and a slightly lower ratio of protein to weight..
there is more in there than just protein alone, flavour, various other stuff.
and also its a protein blend, so you get slightly better taste, more bioactive compounds than isolates (ion exchange/microfiltration generally) and a slightly lower ratio of protein to weight..
I
imported_dkm1987
Guest
Yes I have, and even used it before, but the TASTE IS TERRIBLE.
Actually when you won yours, except I think you won Primer, anyway you mentioned putting sweetner in it, so that's what I did with Driver ( I use Splenda) and it helped, at least enough to stomach it. So that's what I'll end up doing again I am sure.
Actually when you won yours, except I think you won Primer, anyway you mentioned putting sweetner in it, so that's what I did with Driver ( I use Splenda) and it helped, at least enough to stomach it. So that's what I'll end up doing again I am sure.
Just for the record, "most" people don't think Driver tastes terrible. I just thought I should put that out there to defend the reputation of the product.
I
imported_dkm1987
Guest
Well in all fairness, the "Big Picture" has already been answered, BTW thanks for all the input.
Cliner9er, you made the statement about how many grams should be in a serving, not me.
You even are the one who mentions purity, you make no distinction between blended or not. If you "thought" we were talking pure protein, then perhaps you should have prefaced your statement with such.
So no need to try and backpeddle now, we all know HSN is good stuff and I am not accusing you of saying otherwise, just perhaps be a little more specific.
Again thank you for your input
Cliner9er, you made the statement about how many grams should be in a serving, not me.
[b said:
You even are the one who mentions purity, you make no distinction between blended or not. If you "thought" we were talking pure protein, then perhaps you should have prefaced your statement with such.
So no need to try and backpeddle now, we all know HSN is good stuff and I am not accusing you of saying otherwise, just perhaps be a little more specific.
Again thank you for your input