Zone Contest

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(Bulldog @ Jan. 30 2007,11:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What does this type of training do to the time required to complete a workout? It seems like it would just about triple the time required in the gym. Which is not something I would be willing to do.

Although JReps sounds interesting I prefer to keep things simple. Lift weight, next training session add 5% and lift weight.

It just doesn't get any easier than that and there is no doubt that it works as laid out by Bryan in the HST principles. JReps sounds way, way to complicated for me to try to figure out how to apply it to my training and actually get results. With HST I know I will get results and it is very, very easy to layout a program.</div>
This is another common misconception. Let me explain it in the simplest way possible, by example:

If you usually bench press for 60 seconds then a JReps set would still be around 60 seconds just broken into segments of 2-30 second zones, 4-15 second zones etc. My workouts are no longer than they ever were and I come from a HIT style background (low volume/frequency).

With Zone Training you garner volume like effects without needing to increase volume of time spent training. It is more complicated to get an experienced trainee to catch on because they get hung up on full ROM reps. Tough to break old habits. My novice clients learn as quick as any method.

Regards,
Andrew
 
I don't see how that is possible when you are doing x number of reps for two or three different areas of the full range of motion.  Not to mention you are adding and removing weight from the bar so frequently.  I just don't see how you can complete a workout in the same amount of time.

Can you post a full sample routine here so I can check it out?
 
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(Bulldog @ Jan. 30 2007,13:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't see how that is possible when you are doing x number of reps for two or three different areas of the full range of motion. Not to mention you are adding and removing weight from the bar so frequently. I just don't see how you can complete a workout in the same amount of time.

Can you post a full sample routine here so I can check it out?</div>
I could post you a 20 minute routine, a 30 minute routine, 40,60...

Again, you break up a movement into zones and break down the time spent with that move (60 seconds divided by 2,3,4,5,6...). You may stop to change load or just to let congestion and burn subside but there we are talking about seconds. This is easily off set by the fact that much less time is wasted in unproductive ROM you tend to thoroughly work and deeply fatigue your muscles quicker.

Example: You don’t waste all sorts of time and energy in the top of a leg press or squat where the load isn’t even close to what you can handle if you don’t; have to do the other tougher part of each move. This is akin to how a cammed machine can shorten workout time though such machines have major limitations of their own.

So want a quick routine for full body or a split and if split what type? Show me one of your routines and I will show you how I might add Zone Training to it. I need to know exercises/equipment/rep counts etc.

Regards,
Andrew
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What he was saying about JReps/sticking points is incorrect and an example of why much nastiness occurs.</div>

I'd say simplistic, but not quite incorrect.
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But Andrew at least took the time to try and explain it some more...I guess the cat's out the bag!
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Buldog, it is noty quite something I'd just throw away as nonsensical, sounds and IS a whole lot better than some of the magazine crap that one tends to get in BB mags!

And you can easily manage the time factor!It is an intensity technique in short.
 
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(AShortt @ Jan. 30 2007,13:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So want a quick routine for full body or a split and if split what type? Show me one of your routines and I will show you how I might add Zone Training to it. I need to know exercises/equipment/rep counts etc.

Regards,
Andrew</div>
Right now I do vanilla HST 15's, 10's, 5's, full body 3x per week.

Squat
Dead Lift
Bench/Dips (alternate every other workout)
BB Row/Close grip palms facing pull ups (alternate every other workout)
BB Shoulder Press/Side and rear lateral raises (alternate every other workout)
 
AShort,

You are close to giving me reasons to try JReps. It wouldn't hurt to do so. I may do it the cycle after I try Max Stim although I am confused how the different partial reps are combined in a set.

-Colby
 
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(Bulldog @ Jan. 30 2007,14:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(AShortt @ Jan. 30 2007,13:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So want a quick routine for full body or a split and if split what type? Show me one of your routines and I will show you how I might add Zone Training to it. I need to know exercises/equipment/rep counts etc.

Regards,
Andrew</div>
Right now I do vanilla HST 15's, 10's, 5's, full body 3x per week.

Squat
Dead Lift
Bench/Dips (alternate every other workout)
BB Row/Close grip palms facing pull ups (alternate every other workout)
BB Shoulder Press/Side and rear lateral raises (alternate every other workout)</div>
How long does this workout take you?

Regards,
Andrew
 
Sorry, I forgot to add that in the 15's I do one warmup set and one work set. In the 10's I do one warmup set and two work sets. And in the 5's I do 2 warmup sets and 2 work sets. The 15's usually take about 25 - 30 min. The 10's usually take about 45 min. and the 5's usually take about 55-60 min. This time also includes a 5 min. warm up and a 5 min. cool down on a treadmill.
 
Ah...ah

We're finally in the desired experimental zone, grrrrreat
smile.gif
! I like it, that's the way things get tried out for their usefulness or uselessness!

Go Andrew!
wink.gif
 
(quote)
What I like to do is work first in fourths as a warm up. I start with going from below thigh parallel to just above then up just above parrallel, next about the middle and then towards (but not into) lock out. I then add about 30 % more load than normal and work the top 1/2 of the squat. I then strip to a normal load and work the middle 1/3 of the squat. Finally I strip the load to about 20% less than a standard set rest 20 full seconds and squeeze out reps in the bottom 1/3. I stop short of failure by going to the top to rest for 10 seconds for a total of 3 mini sets with a fourth to or close to failure. IN the end my thighs are swollen and rubberized (quote)

most people dont realise when they are parrallel how do you know when you are doing 1/2 or 1/3 squats
 
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(AShortt @ Jan. 30 2007,10:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 30 2007,10:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I wasn't gonna get in this until you said this:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">J-reps attempts to remove the sticking point by avoiding it, so in a bench press, you would complete the bottom part of the rep first up to but not through the &quot;sticking&quot; point and then the top part only again avoiding the &quot;sticking&quot; point, by then the so called easier part is much more difficult, making the rep range more effective.</div>
Funny, that's the opposite of what guys have done for years to get past a sticking point! That's why floor presses and board presses were invented. To work the sticking point until it gets stronger.</div>
What he was saying about JReps/sticking points is incorrect and an example of why much nastiness occurs. People who want to cut it down pretend they understand it and set it up for a fall.

Sometimes I don’t work into a sticking point. Other times I use static holds at sticking points at the beginning middle and/or end of a set. There are many possible applications in Zone Training.

Regards,
Andrew</div>
Andrew,

Quad wasn't cutting it down he simply was disagreeing with you on the whole sticking point issue. Now you said you would address any specific question. Please address his.

How does this compare and why is it better than specific work designed to work through the sticking point versus J-Reps avoidance of the sticking point?
 
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(Dan Moore @ Jan. 31 2007,08:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(AShortt @ Jan. 30 2007,10:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 30 2007,10:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I wasn't gonna get in this until you said this:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">J-reps attempts to remove the sticking point by avoiding it, so in a bench press, you would complete the bottom part of the rep first up to but not through the &quot;sticking&quot; point and then the top part only again avoiding the &quot;sticking&quot; point, by then the so called easier part is much more difficult, making the rep range more effective.</div>
Funny, that's the opposite of what guys have done for years to get past a sticking point! That's why floor presses and board presses were invented. To work the sticking point until it gets stronger.</div>
What he was saying about JReps/sticking points is incorrect and an example of why much nastiness occurs. People who want to cut it down pretend they understand it and set it up for a fall.

Sometimes I don’t work into a sticking point. Other times I use static holds at sticking points at the beginning middle and/or end of a set. There are many possible applications in Zone Training.

Regards,
Andrew</div>
Andrew,

Quad wasn't cutting it down he simply was disagreeing with you on the whole sticking point issue. Now you said you would address any specific question. Please address his.

How does this compare and why is it better than specific work designed to work through the sticking point versus J-Reps avoidance of the sticking point?</div>
I suppose I wasn't clear then - In Zone Training there is no rule about not working through sticking points. Whether you work through a sticking point or not would depend on the actual set in question and how it was working out for you during actual training. In other words you might avoid a sticking point OR you might concentrate on working through the sticking point, it would depend on the exercise and desired goal for the set.

My point being that avoid sticking points is not a Zone Training tenant I guess you could say. The key is to milk all points along a ROM to their utmost. I/we get defensive because bar none a proper zone set milks a full ROM (and taxes a muscle) like nothing else. You can train in the general style you want if you can properly apply the method to it.

Once again this isn’t a do this many of this and that many of that, it isn’t a protocol it is a method.

Regards,
Andrew
 
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(faz @ Jan. 31 2007,03:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">(quote)
What I like to do is work first in fourths as a warm up. I start with going from below thigh parallel to just above then up just above parrallel, next about the middle and then towards (but not into) lock out. I then add about 30 % more load than normal and work the top 1/2 of the squat. I then strip to a normal load and work the middle 1/3 of the squat. Finally I strip the load to about 20% less than a standard set rest 20 full seconds and squeeze out reps in the bottom 1/3. I stop short of failure by going to the top to rest for 10 seconds for a total of 3 mini sets with a fourth to or close to failure. IN the end my thighs are swollen and rubberized (quote)

most people dont realise when they are parrallel how do you know when you are doing 1/2 or 1/3 squats</div>
Well at the risk of sounding even more vague and/or needlessly complex...

You don’t have to make perfect size zones. Those are guidelines to get you into working in segments/short ranges of motion (to have a general plan).

The heart of JReps is paying close attention to targeting and isolation. We flex and squeeze into every positive rep and contract hard then ease out and feel the stretch of the negative. We pump the reps not fats but not slow in a rhythmic manner in line with our breathing. A traditional set might see you getting 8 to12 reps per set in around 50-70 seconds we look to double that minimum but by working in zones not by extending TUT or speeding up movement.

Actual zone size should be dictated loosely by haves, thirds, fourths etc but you are trying to go a lot by feel. You want to feel where an exercise feels one way then in another position it is noticeably different. We want to milk each range for all it is worth by turning all points into the ‘sweet’ spot that some find at a certain point in certain favorite exercises.

I mix up how I break down an exercise and use all sorts of combo’s (1/2, ¼,1/6 etc). We suggest you start with approximate halves then thirds then adding short 5-20 second breaks then reversing zones by mucking with load then…well it blossoms from there in many directions.

Just make sure that by the end of the set you cover the full ROM regardless of how you break it down. Breathe in and out (in on neg. out on pos.) on every rep you won’t hyperventilate you muscle will soak up those nutrients and extra oxygen. Keep load where you can feel the target muscle(s) flexing and squeezing. If mind muscle connection is poor reduce load and practice concentrating; flex-squeeze-pause for just a fraction of a second then stretch and ease out-pause and start again. Rhythmic like a engine piston pumping away, a rhythm makes it possible to make subtle adjustments and build far better bodybuilding technique.

Rest breaks between zones (if any) shouldn’t exceed 20 seconds. Total time spent working in an exercise should start around 60 seconds (to or near failure). You then fine tune set length based on how a muscle is reacting to the set. Then the amount of sets becomes based in part on how long previous sets needed to be to hit the mark.

Regards,
Andrew
 
TBH mate it seems like its just a mix of ,half,full,rep ranges which were used in the 21s years ago along with more tut and tempo.
no disrespect but you are not doing anything that hasnt been done before and your answers are a bit like a poloticians ie you dont really answer the question.

and when you started talking about going to faliure that done it we might as well train like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a5uDmwJFp4&amp;NR
 
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(faz @ Feb. 01 2007,04:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">TBH mate it seems like its just a mix of ,half,full,rep ranges which were used in the 21s years ago along with more tut and tempo.
no disrespect but you are not doing anything that hasnt been done before and your answers are a bit like a poloticians ie you dont really answer the question.

and when you started talking about going to faliure that done it we might as well train like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a5uDmwJFp4&amp;NR</div>
Actually if it is ‘like’ anything it is like Stage Reps however the difference is this is a method those were just random rep schemes (though Stage Reps had a reasonable purpose). Apply a poor combination of zones and it won’t do that much more than a regular set with full range of motion. If you pay attention though you will pick up on how working in zones allows for far better targeting and isolation. Until you work hooked up to a force gauge and/or EMG read out you can’t barely imagine how much cheating goes on in a seemingly strict set.

There is no magic combination of things for everyone. You need a method to determine what is ‘sweet’ for each muscle as it reacts dynamically during a workout.

Again if you haven't worked the method and know the details &quot;sounds like&quot; causes more confusion than anything.

I can only say so much in thread posts. Again I can show rep schemes to try but the method is about learning how to devise your own so you can move away from basic gains to real bodybuilding.

As I mentioned before even zone size would ultimately be determined by the individual. Limb lengths, muscle qualities and sizes all affect how ROM breaks down.

Regards,
Andrew
 
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(Bulldog @ Jan. 30 2007,18:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sorry, I forgot to add that in the 15's I do one warmup set and one work set. In the 10's I do one warmup set and two work sets. And in the 5's I do 2 warmup sets and 2 work sets. The 15's usually take about 25 - 30 min. The 10's usually take about 45 min. and the 5's usually take about 55-60 min. This time also includes a 5 min. warm up and a 5 min. cool down on a treadmill.</div>
Ok, so here is a possible arrangement.

Start with Squats

- Take about 10-15% lower than your normal load and squeeze of 4 reps in the middle 1/3 of the move followed by 1 full rep up to total lock out. Do this 3-4 times as a warm-up.
- Rest 15-20 seconds
- Next using the same warm-up load work the bottom 1/2/stretch zone for as many reps as you can handle in 30-35 seconds (about 12 reps). Concentrate on squeezing out the reps and contracting the thigh muscle. Don’t bounce but don’t go too slow. Breathe out on every positive rep and in deep on the negative. Feel the stretch as you descend and pause for a brief moment at each end of each rep (for a fraction of a second). When you feel you are quite sure you are going to get stuck come up to the top and lockout.
- Now rest only as long as it takes you to add more weight. Add at least 20% more than normal and now work the top 1/2 like you did the bottom 1/2.
- Finish the set by lowering at about a 5-6 second count all the way to the bottom for a good negative stretch.

Rest 1.5 –2.5 minutes

Deal Lift

- As a warm up using about 20% less than your standard work weight work in thirds. Pump three reps off in the bottom 1/3 then three in the middle 1/3 and three at the top 1/3. - Stop for a 5-10 second break then do it again. Get a feel for the different points along the ROM. Work through in thirds a few more times, approximately 3-4 runs through.
- Rest 30 seconds and put on a standard work weight.
- Start by pumping 12 or so reps (about 30-35 seconds) in the bottom 1/2
- Come right up to the top and pause for a couple of deep breathes.
- Now pump off around 12 reps (30-35 seconds) for the top 1/2.

Rest 1.5 –2.5 minutes

Dips

- Start by working the bottom 1/4 of the move with 3 short pumps, then do sets of 3 reps all the way up in fourths (1/4 reps) - 3/3/3/3
- Stop rest 5-10 seconds and do it again.
- Stop rest 5-10 seconds then do it again stop one last time.
- Rest for 5-10 seconds
- Next work in the bottom ½ (stretch zone) for 12-15 reps. Then go right to the top to lockout and pause for a second.
- Now finish by working the top 1/2 for 12-15 reps and finish with a slow negative right to the bottom like in the squat.

Rest 1.5 –2.5 minutes

Chins/Pull-ups (palms facing you, shoulder width grip)

- Hanging straight-armed begin by pulling yourself up a few inches with a downward shrug of your traps. That is, no arm bending; just pulling up with your back by shrugging down (the opposite of a standard trap shrug) Work about 10 quick reps like this (about 10-12 seconds)
- Next climb up to the top in the fully flexed position and work this shrug again. Your arms will unbend a bit on the negative but concentrate on just shrugging the move with your back for about 10 reps (about 10-12 seconds). Your shoulders come down as you squeeze and then stretch up as your stretch.
- Now start your regular set by working only the sticking point in the middle 1/3 of the ROM. Remember to squeeze into the positive and ease out on the negative in a pumping rhythmic fashion breathing on every rep. Work back and forth through the sticking point and get your back fully into it. Work for 8-10 reps.
- Stop rest 5-10 seconds and now work the top 1/3 of the move for 8-10 reps.
- Rest again 5-10 seconds then work the bottom/stretch Zone but this time keep aiming for just below the middle/sticking point. Only stop once you can’t cover at least the first 1/4 of the total ROM.

Rest 1.5 –2.5 minutes

BB Shoulder press

For the full set do as follows until you feel you have had enough.

- Start with arms up straight elbows locked overhead.
- You will break the exercise down into fourths (1/4 reps)
- Pump 2 reps in the top 1/4 then 2 reps in the next 1/4 down then 2 reps in the 1/4 below that and finally 2 reps in the bottom 1/4.
- Stop rest 5-10 second and repeat.
- Keep resting and repeating until you feel you have had enough.
- Mentally as fatigue and burn set in begin aiming for the top in the third and bottom/stretch 1/4 zones.

* Remember flex the muscle and squeeze into each positive rep don’t just try and move your limbs to get form point A to B. Your focus and concentration should be on the targeted muscles not just the general movement. Don’t underestimate the breathing and rhythmic movement patterns, flex and pump- squeeze and stretch.

Regards,
Andrew
 
andrew
is the rest time 20 s a hard and fast rule?or you can take more than 20 s?
also doing a set jrep requires a low weight which will contribute to onlyan inflated muscle ?no real growth as the weight will be less than 80% 1 rm as taking 20 s rest between zones require less load.or can you use a 80% load for the bottom rest 1 or more mins then do top zone?
 
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(shakeel @ Feb. 02 2007,08:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">andrew
is the rest time 20 s a hard and fast rule?or you can take more than 20 s?
also doing a set jrep requires a low weight which will contribute to onlyan inflated muscle ?no real growth as the weight will be less than 80% 1 rm as taking 20 s rest between zones require less load.or can you use a 80% load for the bottom rest 1 or more mins then do top zone?</div>
As I mentioned to you on the Zone discussion board a rest of more than 20 seconds (if you take a rest break for JRep extreme sets) is like starting a new set (fatigue wise).

You don’t lower load for the target muscle - you work to discover what you can truly handle without all the useless bracing and subtle cheating. You still lift heavy, very heavy for any given muscle. In other words, we work well within if not heavier than our 80% of 1RM. That is 80% for a given muscle not just what can be accomplished through inter and intra muscular coordination. We work to minimize bringing in outlying musculature and timed bracing (as per energy conservation elements of human energetics).

Regards,
Andrew
 
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