A question I've always wanted to know

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Garratt, Sep 1, 2003.

  1. Garratt

    Garratt New Member

    I have a question, about amino acids. WHat is the point of single amino acids. Like why would someone take L-Glutamin (for the immune system) or L-Cystine (Tons of benifits) alone, don't you get enough from protein powders? Or EAA's vs just taking protein..

    the only 2 things I can think of is.. They require no digestion, and don't have to compete with each other..

    Is that pretty much it? and how much do they really compete for each other. Does having more of ONE amino, mean it will have a greater chance of being taken up by the body?..

    And if thats the case, wouldn't taking SINGLE amino acids for their health effects, be better away from protein?

    Anywase thanks in advance for answering this.
     
  2. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    You are asking the difference between free form and peptide bonded aminos. Peptide bonded are great (the chain is not broken), when needing a full spectrum protein, like post training, or even during training, or to supplement your "whole food" meals.

    Free form aminos shine for a specific purpose. Extra.L-Glutamine for example will enhance recovery, and more beneficial when on a calorie restricted diet and low in bodyfat. May help spare muscle. L-Argininine for example is/can be great pre workout for a great pump, and is good stacked with something like HMB. BCAA's you also get free form. L-Carnintine is reputed to help burn fat on a calorie restricted diet, so you may want to supplement it with each meal and during cardio.

    Hope this gives you some idea, there are many reasons to take free form aminos.
     
  3. stevie

    stevie New Member

    single amino acids provides the manufacturer a means to make more money. Thats about the only benefit. a good quality simple whey protein concentrate (80%protein) is absoultely all the aa/protein supplementation you need to maximise gains in the gym.
     
  4. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Free form aminos are also less well absorbed than those that come from a polypeptide. Humans havent evolved to absorb them really, as they dont happen much in nature.
    In terms of hte point of a free form amino (apart from tasting like crud). Some have an advantage. L Glutamine is supposed to do a lot of things, but from the available research does little.
    One good amino, is L tyrosine, as it has stimulant properties (that have been researched a reasonable amount). Good for people lifting/training within a drug tested program.

    EAAvs complete protien. Freeform EAA are expensive and taste bad, and there is no research to show that EAA will provide any benifit over a complete protein providing the same amount of EAA (>50% of aminos in protein are generally eaa)
     
  5. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    This is simply not true. How about BCAA's when calorie restricted! Your body burns them quite efficiently for glucose. Not trying to be fecitious here, but you should do your research before making a blanket statement that is not at all true.
     
  6. stevie

    stevie New Member

    i wasnt aware that we were talking in the context of calorie restriction.

    all aminoacids can be burnt efficiently for glucose, not just BCAAs. I dont see your point?

    My blanket statment referred to this point that Aaron made more eloquently:
     
  7. micmic

    micmic New Member

    Ummm, let's see... BCAAs (valine, leucine, isoleucine)... an average whey protein contains 23-24gr of the three of them per 100gr of pure protein... where I am, a certain brand of whey protein costs 22 euros (the 500gr) and is 85% protein... after doing the math, I see that I have to spend 0.165 euros in order to take 750mg of BCAAs from this protein. The exact same brand has BCAA tablets (750mg each), the 120 of them cost 36 euros... doing the math again... now I have to pay 0.300 euros to get the same 750mg of BCAAs and without getting the rest of the aminoacids that I get in the first case.

    It does indeed seem like a huge waste of money, unless you have any studies showing that BCAAs by themselves are better than when you take them in a protein.

    Same goes for most other stand-alone amino acids.
     
  8. Cliner9er

    Cliner9er New Member

    Uhh, OK. As already mentioned all these "stack" claims are unfound in research. If you are using HMB you better get your pocketbook out as the beneficial dose can put you in the poor house and the overall effect is minimal at best.
     
  9. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    If you are calorie restricted, i.e...contest dieting, your job 1 is to protect lean mass. I am sure all will agree with this. Your body will get BCAA's from where it can, and this is muscle tissue. If you do not supplement them, as you all may well know these cannot be made, they must be gotten from an outside source. So, if you do not use them, say bye bye hard earned muscle. Besides, BCAA's are great at "tricking" the body to useing fatty acid stores for fuel rather than muscle, by seeing a "flood" of them in the bloodstream, the body says hey, I am breaking down muscle tissue already, better resort to fat stores. BCAA supplementation can contribute toa agreater loss of fat while maintaining your strength levels. For those of you who have never competed, or dieted for a contest, you will find out the hard way.

    BCAA's also have been shown to raise both growth hormone and insulin levels at the same time, hence increased anti-catabolism and anabolism.

    As far as HMB, you are correct in your statement about the price. This is why a product that has a blend in it, in synergy so to speak is good. I was not in any way inferring to buy HMB, this was just a general statement.

    Arginine has shown positive effects on growth hormone release (that have not always panned out in the real world), but its positive effect on nitric oxide levels is well documented. Nitric Oxide can boost muscle development, reverse muscle breakdown and enhance the body’s release of insulin.
    The muscle building power of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate has been confirmed by several studies. But, first the dose was too large, and its promise did not translate into the real world of advanced drug free bodybuilding. ·

    Glutamine has been used in hospitals for years to maintain lean muscle tissue and speed recovery in times of medical distress. More recently it has been embraced by the athletic community for increased protein metabolism and growth and decreased risk of overtraining.

    Creatine’s ability to boost gains in strength and lean muscle mass is well recognized. You can train heavier, get more reps and recover quicker with creatine monohydrate.
    Strategic mixtures of these muscle mass-promoting agents have been involved in studies at the Nassau County Medical Center in New York and the Institute of Sport and Physical Education in Warsaw Poland. These “anabolic cocktails” combined the individual ingredients above synergistically to increase muscle growth at a rate far exceeding that expected from any of the ingredients alone.

    In the New York study there was a dramatic reversal of tissue wasting in AIDS patients with an Arginine / beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate / Glutamine compound. During an 8 week controlled study with 68 human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infected patients, the supplement compound group gained an average of 6.6 pounds while the placebo group continued to lose lean body mass!

    In Poland the effect of combining Creatine Monohydrate with beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate produced significantly greater gains in strength and lean body mass than either could alone.
     
  10. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    Look, I am not here to argue, I really don't care what you guys want to use or not. I replied to a question simply asking what would you use free form or bonded aminos for. I gave some examples. This was all. I have been doing this for the better part of 20 yrs. , been competeing, and have done the legwork on supplements. I will be the first to rant against supplement companies and their underhanded selling tactics to the uninformed. But, there are some legit things out there, and some of them are essential at some times. BCAA's are not essential if not on a calorie restricted diet. But, if you are, you had better use them. Again, this was an example to answer the original question. Experience is a darn good teacher! Good luck to you, and yours in health.
     
  11. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    The value of using free form amino acids depends on why you are taking them.
     
  12. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    Exactly!!
     
  13. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Lets start this from the begining :)
    Your body burns all aminos very well. ~50% of all aminos can be deaminated and oxidised/converted to glucose etc.
    So, to ask the question everyone else is saying, What is the difference between free form BCAA and those supplied in large doses in any other food source?
    And a large proportion of what you lose is up to your body, not what you eat or the little aminos that you take additionally.
    Miniscule rises in gH are unimportant in the big scheme. BCAAs may raise insulin, but they will also raise glucagon, so that ratio remains relatively unchanged.
    Arginine may raise gH, but this raise is insignificant. if pro bbrs cant get much of an effect from massives doses of gH, what is a miniscule rise from gH going to achieve?
    Nitric Oxide is a rip off supplement with no research backing it.
    The 'bbing' community like to say this, but most hospitals wont feed their patients single free form aminos. if anything, they will be a combination of essential free form aminos. BUT, burns patients (those most routinely studied) are a completely different situation to everyone else in the world. and more recent research shows that Casein (a whole protien) will be better for them, as free form aminos are more quickly taken up and potentially oxidised. To quote a recent review on glutamine feeding "on the basis of currently available clinical data, it is inappropriate to recommend glutamine for therapeutic use in any condition.
    "
    Pity no decent research actually shows this. Glutamin has been hyped for years, but there is very little research on it in the resistance training field, and none of it really shows any advantage of taking it. Hype from sponsered athletes and Bb-rags are a different thing.
    and also to top it off, HMB isnt an amino, its a metabolite of an amino acid. Creatine also is not an amino, it may be 'made' from aminos, but is generally classified under non-protien nitrogen.
     
  14. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    Obviously none of you have ever competed. It is one thing getting to 9-10% bf, but quite another getting to competition bodyfat levels. So, you think that to get to 4-5%, all you have to do is tighten your diet more, do cardio, and take a protein supplement? Well, you unfortuantely are in for a rude awakening should you ever go to compete. At these bodyfat levels, you have to do everything to maintain lean mass, and BCAA's are a big part of this. Do you realize how hard it is at these levels to lose even 1% more bodyfat? Your body will rob lean tissue right and left, and fight you to the end to use muscle rather than fat stores, this is a survival mechanism. One day, if any of you ever get that far, you may want to remember this post. I will not argue this point anymore, I have been there many times, have done this too many times, and know what I am talking about. People without this experience cannot repudiate it, they have no leg to stand on never having been there. How can you argue something you know nothing about?
     
  15. micmic

    micmic New Member

    Anecdotal experiences as arguments in this forum are generally as useful as a knob on a soccer ball, unless it is all we have. And in this case you respond to arguments with anecdotal experiences.

    Ok, then I say that it is possible to go to 3% bf without BCAA, without diet and in fact by only eating Doritos. I know 4 people who have done it.

    Now prove me wrong.
     
  16. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    LOL :D :D :D
    its a shame that I have delt with a large number getting to low bf levels, and while they are different than getting to 8-10%, there is also the problem that nothing stops muscle loss, not even massive doses of anabolics. So Xg of BCAA is going to make little difference (especially considering the large amount of BCAA that is already comming in from food/protien supplements).
     
  17. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    is it possible to ask for such research ??

    in Poland the connection between creatine, ribose and HMB is strongly pushed by major polish supplement brand :D
     
  18. micmic

    micmic New Member

    I don't mean to nullify anyone's experience and its value, just want to show that such talk leads nowhere. Imagine if Arnold were a member of this forum, along these lines he could post something like this:

    "It's obvious that none of you has ever competed for a Mr. Olympia, well, I have done so many times and I have to say that HST principles are completely wrong. I never had an SD and never trained like this in my life. Not only that, but I also have two good buddies who completely agree with me, their names are Columbu and Zane"

    Now, how can anyone answer to this ?
     
  19. Cliner9er

    Cliner9er New Member

    :confused:?

    None of this makes any sense. As Mic and Aaron have stated you have provided no solid backing to these claims other than anecdotal experience. This sounds like a supplement salesmen's claims of magic dusts to maintain anti-catabolic/anabolic processes. Please provide references that isolated BCAA's or these other combos have these effects you state. You state you know what you are talking about yet do not reference your claims. Things that make you go hmmm.
     
  20. rb1fit

    rb1fit New Member

    :)
     

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