Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Andy741, Dec 9, 2003.
Will eating a banana with whey protein make it good for post workout absorption?
Make what good for absorption? Both will be absorbed fine without one or the other, but the combination would be better for post-workout glycogen replenishment if that is your goal. If fat loss is your goal, you "might" drop the banana, and maybe not. It depends.
Lyle is a rich man.
Fruit won't give you the insulin spike that you need post-workout. There are much better choices than fruit during this time.
I also want to add that up until about 10 days ago I had been eating things like Rice Chex cereal or white bread with honey to give me some high GI carbs post workout. I've started using maltodextrin instead, and I must say that I can tell a pretty big difference in recovery time and also in my energy levels during my workouts! It boils down to glycogen replacement being noticeably better! It's been a pleasant surprise!
you realise that a ripe banana is predominantly glucose and high GI dont you?
these are both very high GI foods! I would suggest any difference you have noticed is only to do with the quantity of carbs you are now consuming. its much easier to get 70g carbs from a maltodextrin drink than it is to eat 70g from cereal.
You're right, those are high GI and that's why I was using them. However, I don't think they entered my system nealy as quickly (solids = more digestion time?). Anyway, I swear I can tell the difference!
BTW, I can wolf down 70g of Rice Chex in nothing flat! As a matter of fact, it's hard to stop at just 70g!
As far as using fruit post-workout, you're right, a banana is probably one of the best choices. However, a banana also has fructose which doesn't do us much good post-workout, and also fair amount of fiber that will slow digestion. All I was saying is that there are better choices than fruit to replenish glycogen.
A banana is perfectly fine. Glycogen repletion takes place over the time period frm the training session until the next one. A banana is not going to make much of a difference to this. It provides a high Glycemic tasty choice for post workout food.
Bodybuilding world seem to think the only way to replete glycogen is with dextrose/malto. The endurance world has been using solid foods for years.
I'm sure a banana (or any other carb) will do just fine for replacing glycogen stores if that's all you expect from your post workout nutrition. But I have to respectfully disagree with your thinking. Endurance athletes and bodybuilders have very different objectives. Glycogen recovery is just one piece of the puzzle. As bodybuilders we also want to slow protein breakdown and speed up protein synthesis ASAP after working out. I'm well aware that this process will happen by itself over a period of time, but this can take many hours to occur. The whole idea of post workout nutrition is to jump-start the recovery process and tip the balance of protein synthesis vs. breakdown in our favor. A rapid insulin release combined with the proper nutrients is the key to doing this. Why not take advantage of the post-workout window with all the ammo you can bring to the fight? I still say a banana is not even close to the best PW carb source
Just eat the banana beforehand. Problem solved.
tipton got greater protein synthesis outta P+C than protien alone...
You guys might want to read a low/high-GI, carb/no-carb post-workout debate over at Avant Labs forums, currently 8 pages long with 225 replies:
Thanks for the link Blade! I'm always up for reading the augments from both sides…always searching for the truth!
Cliner9er: No, I don't have any papers supporting my belief. I doubt this issue has been studied well enough by science to provide any real meaningful info anyway. One study doesn’t prove much. Muscle and Fitness provides studies in every monthly issue that would suggest one thing or another, but how many actually hold any water when it comes down to it? Most of the studies that we all argue about probably aren't very useful because they weren’t designed with the BB’er in mind. Most don’t take into account the whole picture of our lifestyle, diet and fitness level. If we would have believed everything the scientific community has told us, we’d still think AAS were not effective in building muscle and that we only need 30g protein in our daily diets! I have to think that the use of insulin and the accompanying big rise in mass and weight among the pros is no fluke! That’s just my opinion, but until something comes along to convince me otherwise, I’m sticking with the BB’ers and their anecdotal evidence…they always seem to be way ahead of scientific community. Overall, being in-tune with and listening to our bodies has been a pretty effective tool over the years. So now I say to you: Do you have any conclusive evidence that high GI carbs post workout aren’t beneficial over other carb sources?
Correlating the use of insulin in itself in the rise in mass and weight among AAS BB's is very flawed and to think the increase in Insulin in high GI CHO can correlate to the suprahuman dosages BB's take is very poor logic.
Tipton himself has said it would take two years to notice a SD in muscle mass gains from ANY pre/post macro manipulation. IMHO, it doesn't matter unless there are certain training situation such as long-term training (over 90 minutes), multiple sessions a day, or certain KD conditions where CHO is needed quickly. Look over at Avant and make up your own mind, there is plenty of debate over there. A majority of the references are greatly misunderstood and worthless but there is some acceptable dialogue.
Okay, I read the whole debate over at Avant...I have a headache now, BTW!
The only conclusion I can reach from that lengthy debate is that high GI carbs post workout may (key word) not be the major (another key word) benefit once thought. However, that's obviously highly debatable and I'm still not convinced.
Also, I didn't read anything even remotely convincing that said high GI carbs post-workout are in any way detrimental. So what's the benefit of switching to low GI post workout? It seems to me that there’s still plenty of evidence to support the use of high GI...why go away from them if it's not going to be detrimental either way? That’s a serious question…I’d like to know your thinking regarding this.
This post is getting somewhat interesting...
The GI itself is relative to a few things. A carbohydrate food's GI is decreased once taken with other things. Adding a protein food to a high GI carbohydrate will do just this. And the more the meal gets mixed, the more the GI gets affected.
Bearing this in mind, we also must consider that glycogen synthesizing mechanisms are, on a per unit time basis, finite, and taking any more carbs per unit time than glycogen synthesizing mechanisms can handle is likely to lead to a carbohydrate spillover, with such excess glucose being stored as fat, all else being equal.
Furthermore, glycogen replenishment in weight lifters and bodybuilders depends on the situation. What sort of workout was performed? Was it one that significantly depleted glycogen stores i.e. high volume, high rep, burn/pump sets? Or was it a low volume, low-rep, max weight workout where less glycogen is likely to be used?
To add to this, one little study that I read in Muscle & Fitness several years ago reported that weight-lifting type activity often lead to microtrauma of the affected tissues (muscle....) and it was observed that such damaged tissue exhibited insulin resistance until all such DOMS disappeared.
Would it be wise then, to whack in the high GI carbs when there is a chance that you are in a state, albeit temporal, of greater insulin resistance? As an aside, this is something the "no pain no gain" types might want to bear in mind - DOMS is no indication of growth stimulation even though it is an indication that the muscles have become retarded to insulin.
One must consider the load on the pancreas when high GI foods are ingested. All else being equal, pancreatic shut-down does occur when the pancrease is overworked. Pancreatic tumours are not too far fetched too. Too much carbs too soon causes one's pancreas to work furiously, churning out tons of insulin in a panic-attempt to maintain glucose homeostasis. Do have pity on the pancreas. We need it to live.
That being said, is there a time and place for high GI carbs? Yes - pre-workout, taken with a fast protein. In this instance, we do not want gastric emptying being impeded by a slow-digesting lest this affects protein digestion which would then affect the state of hyperaminoacidaemia that we are hoping is induced by quick assimilation of the fast protein. Thus, a fast-digesting carbohydrate will be less of an impediment than a slow-digesting carbohydrate - the carbohydrate's GI then becomes a question of being a necessary evil since a fast digesting carbohydrate must have a high GI, and vice versa.
A fast-digesting carbohydrate will work better at keeping the liver busy too, and so more protein, in hyperaminoacideamic circumstances, would escape liver deamination to make it to your bloodstream, and from there, to your muscles.
Apart from such considerations, and taking into account the fact that bodybuilders tend to have mixed meals all the time or protein predominant meals, low GI, or lower GI as the case may be, seems to be the only way to go since it inevitably gets decreased unless we simply took a high GI carb on its own on an empty stomach.
Protein synthesis from the workout occurs over a period of 24-48 hours and so we spread our nutrition over such a time-frame, especially if post-workout insulin resistance could be present. It is thus opportune to have a slower digesting protein and carbohydrate meal post-workout for such trickle-feeding. This is the reason why Driver is a slower-digesting protein, and also the reason why a solid meal post-workout is also good medicine if you do not have access to a liquid meal that is slower digesting.
We simply must bear in mind the physiology of the situation and plan our meals accordingly.
Godspeed, and happy HSTing
Reading that thread over at Avant has removed any desire I may have had to hear more debate on this topic! I think that both the main players in that debate had some good points. Just a side note--if those two guys were to be put in the same room, there would be much violence and possibly death--I'd pay to see that! Anyway, the one point that I'm taking away from all this is that proper pre-workout nutrition might be the best solution this dilemma.
I also think that a small amount of high GI carbs with some fast digesting protein post workout (maybe 20-30g each--depending on BW), followed shortly there after by a larger meal of lower GI carbs and slow digesting protein might be a "safe" solution to cover all the bases…and because I still have tons of maltodextrin to use up!
Back to the topic of pre-workout nutrition. My experience with high GI carbs has been that I experience a hard crash about halfway through my workout. I train with pretty high intensity and volume (about 25 total sets in a one-hour time frame). Maybe it would be best to continue the pre-workout meal through the first half of the workout by sipping on a whey/maltodexrin drink between sets? This might also be a better solution for those of us who have a difficult time completely buying the argument that high GI isn’t optimal post-workout. My thinking is that I could just drink a small whey shake when I get home from the gym, and then about an hour later eat a solid low GI meal and call it good.
BTW: dianabol, I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your overall approach with your reply! Too many of us have a tendency to use aggressive-attacking methods of reply when we don’t necessarily agree with someone else’s opinion. We’re all here to learn and share info. Showing respect for the opinions of others while sharing your own views shows maturity and class! Thanks!
The pleasure is mine really. We all are fellow iron brethren and on this forum, lively discussion is the means of comparing our notes, although some discussion tends to get more lively than others
You raised an interesting point: "Maybe it would be best to continue the pre-workout meal through the first half of the workout by sipping on a whey/maltodexrin drink between sets?"
I myself experience the crash and it is bothersome to crash especially when the workout is not yet complete. Indeed, your solution is a good one. I myself have remedied such crash via intra-workout consumption of carbohydrates. While we are at it, we might as well throw in some protein, just for good measure. To me, it's about mixing up my pre-workout shake, then drinking half of it before working out and taking gulps of it between sets. This helps cushion the crash, if it then occurs at all.
As an aside, many "starchy" carbs that we take post-workout are in fact high in GI. Rice, bread, potatoes, pasta, noodles etc are all high in GI. A vast majority of carbs are high in GI (save for most fruit and certain oddities like yam), and it would be hard to go low GI unless we made special effort to get low GI carbs. Then again, once the meal gets mixed, GI gets decreased, so this may or may not be a worry, depending on one's state of health.
Godspeed, and happy HSTing
Interesting discussion (as was the one at Avant, if you omit the childish rhetoric).
Oatmeal is often used as a low-GI post-workout carb source. Oat bran cereals, such as Fiber One or Cheerios even, can also be used. I personally also use a small amount of dextrose w/ either oatmeal or Cheerios post-.
Edit: for during-workout carbs, you can also mix some Gatorade powder in water, or bottled Gatorade. There are also several supps out there, Vendetta & GO being a couple, for this purpose.
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