Bryan, What Are Your Thoughts On Higher Frequency Training?

[Blade]

The one thing the SD study doesn’t cover for me is the mental side of training.

I know I couldn’t handle three weeks off like that with any sort of frequency.

9-12 days is the common SD length, this was just from a proof-of-principle study. I personally find SD to be highly underrated, and wish I had been doing it on a regular basis these last few years of tinkering with various programming methods.

What is it that you can’t "handle"? If you have thoughts of needing to be in the gym for emotional reasons, I would perhaps do some introspection on that. The famous quote "Don’t let psychological needs dictate physiological reality" c0mes to mind. Do you just want to train for the sake of training, or do you actually want to make progress and stay healthy over the long haul?

 

[NWlifter]

As far as the research goes, hypertrophy tends to max out around 80-85% of 1RM and how many reps you can do on that varies according to the individual and that individual’s lifts/muscle groups.

James Krieger recently posted an addendum to his "volume bible" in the membership portal of his page, based on unpublished data from Schoenfeld. Here are some screenshots:

My thoughts, as per my recent facebook post:


A brief synopsis of my current views on the current and soon-to-be-published studies on training volume:

- they are running statistical sorcery on a pretty huge variation in rate of gains to tease out a few % advantage to the higher volume. Using %ages it sounds like you get twice the gains (5% vs 10%), but with several caveats (are you actually measuring muscle growth with any reliable accuracy?). You are essentially doing 3-5x the volume for a pretty small benefit (5%). Would you invest your money the same way?

- there will be more inflammation with higher volumes to skew the results when measured by the most common methods, and even then it is difficult to measure the pretty miniscule changes over the 8-12 weeks most studies run for.

- no individual subject gets to compare different volumes, they will simply be a number in the group average without ever knowing if a lower (or higher) volume would work better for them.

- a higher rate of gains over the 8-12 weeks that most studies run for, doesn’t necessarily translate into the same rate of gains over 6 months or 12 months.

In fact, my experience shows that a higher initial rate of gains tends to taper off compared to a more moderate rate of gains. We even have studies showing that a group training 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off (!) achieved the same muscle growth over 6 months as a group training consistently - the rate of gains was higher after the 3 week rest period in the first group and they caught up with the other group.



Here’s a former client and his experience with the more conservative volume approach (basically 2-3 sets (or 1 rest-pause/Myo-reps set) 2-3x/week):

Great video too Borge, just watched the whole thing. Great info., reality is great, theory is 'fun', but reality is best for the Rx on training.

(basically 2-3 sets (or 1 rest-pause/Myo-reps set)

That is cool you wrote that, back in the 90's I did what I called 'Non failure rest pause', which was kinda Myo-reps (just not the continous tension part). I did a comparison between 4 regular sets for a while vs the 'non failure rest pause', (one set + 2 rest pause sets after) and they seemed to work the same. If there was a difference, it wasn't noticeable in real life, and that's what counts.

Edit: found my old notebook just for fun, here's a shot of a section
https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3/maYUa6.jpg

 

[Jester]

9-12 days is the common SD length, this was just from a proof-of-principle study. I personally find SD to be highly underrated, and wish I had been doing it on a regular basis these last few years of tinkering with various programming methods.

What is it that you can’t "handle"? If you have thoughts of needing to be in the gym for emotional reasons, I would perhaps do some introspection on that. The famous quote "Don’t let psychological needs dictate physiological reality" c0mes to mind. Do you just want to train for the sake of training, or do you actually want to make progress and stay healthy over the long haul?

Interesting query.

I think it’s probably best described as the ‘feeling’ of training, and then also of having trained.

 

[Blade]

Interesting query.

I think it’s probably best described as the ‘feeling’ of training, and then also of having trained.

Ok, and what is the deeper meaning behind that ’feeling’ you are craving for? What happens when you don’t have that ’feeling of training’?

 

[_Simon_]

Ok, and what is the deeper meaning behind that ’feeling’ you are craving for? What happens when you don’t have that ’feeling of training’?

I think this is such an important inquiry that everyone would benefit from doing. I've had to do it for myself a few years ago, asking myself this and being totally honest with myself, and it was definitely driven by a deep insecurity (which of course I found out cannot be fixed by weighttraining), so I'm still working through that nowadays as I'm devoted to a much more spiritual focus (in which you can't hide from anything anymore hehe).

But I truly enjoy training as a process nowadays, and can't see myself stopping it as I just love everything about it. Only when it becomes a 'need' or dependency is when I have to really question it, but as a whole I've relaxed much more about it.

 

[Jester]

Ok, and what is the deeper meaning behind that ’feeling’ you are craving for? What happens when you don’t have that ’feeling of training’?

Actually I think it’s the physical feeling as much as sensation. Maybe as simple as the old quote about exercise releasing endorphins etc.

Probably throw in some portion of maintaining control, goal setting&achieving, tranquility, pushing oneself and so on.

But at the end of the day, you could just simplify it further and call it enjoyment. How else do hobbies and activities stay with us? Because we enjoy doing them.

And enough that I don’t want to take frequent three week break frequently .



(And in practical terms it’s now financially free and doesn’t impose on my family or anyone else etc.)

 

[Blade]

Fair enough, but you should also view SD as a central part of the training process - and again, no need to take 3 weeks off, but 9-12 days every 8-12 weeks (depending on how long you wish to extend the cycle) .

 

[NWlifter]

A person could do an 'active SD' too? Maybe some really endurance related training? REALLY light, high rep, maybe even circuit type?

 

[Jester]

Fair enough, but you should also view SD as a central part of the training process - and again, no need to take 3 weeks off, but 9-12 days every 8-12 weeks (depending on how long you wish to extend the cycle) .

I probably take 2-3 weeks twice a year, for holiday purposes.

Do you incorporate SD rather than a traditional deload? Thoughts on Barbell Medicine’s tactic of de-stressor weeks (volume rexurion), rather than a deload (load reduction)?

 

[Sci]

I think in Jester’s case, he primarily trains for STRENGTH and THE PLEASURE OF LIFTING!
with HST, the primary goal is muscle size increase. Jester is mainly concerned with lifting heavy stuff, and having fun while throwing around piles of iron.
So, SD isn’t necessary for SST, (from a HST oriented approach to hypertrophy gains). I think it may be helpful to take periodized breaks every so often anyway to allow for joint healing and CNS recovery.

Anyway, my main concern is growing muscles, and I take the SD principle of HYPERTROPHY TRAINING, more seriously than ever before. I use to only take SD periods when I was forced to, due to my career pressures.
But NOW, i see the scientific benefits more clearly of why it is optimal to progress the loads to your 5 rep maxes, then go for PRs, then stall and then take 1-2 weeks off from training. Then start with light loads and progress to heavier loads, get new PRs, stall and start the whole process again!

 

[Sci]

I believe that a person using progressive HST cycles with strategically planned breaks from training, will see more consistent longterm results than if they just hammered away all year without breaks.... which leads to results plateauing.

 

[Jester]

I think in Jester’s case, he primarily trains for STRENGTH and THE PLEASURE OF LIFTING!
with HST, the primary goal is muscle size increase. Jester is mainly concerned with lifting heavy stuff, and having fun while throwing around piles of iron.
So, SD isn’t necessary for SST, (from a HST oriented approach to hypertrophy gains). I think it may be helpful to take periodized breaks every so often anyway to allow for joint healing and CNS recovery.

Anyway, my main concern is growing muscles, and I take the SD principle of HYPERTROPHY TRAINING, more seriously than ever before. I use to only take SD periods when I was forced to, due to my career pressures.
But NOW, i see the scientific benefits more clearly of why it is optimal to progress the loads to your 5 rep maxes, then go for PRs, then stall and then take 1-2 weeks off from training. Then start with light loads and progress to heavier loads, get new PRs, stall and start the whole process again!

More or less accurate re: my situation. Life is short enough, fill it with activities you enjoy.

Man I miss my old #s...

 

[Blade]

Sci nailed it