Carb backloading and other cutting tricks...

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by wungun, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. wungun

    wungun Member

    Another update...
    I've found that, despite the claims, I personally can not cram down loads of calories at the end of the day... But I am, however on a cutting phase. Doing HIIT twice a week.
    As I mentioned, I'm doing an A/B upper/lower body split... It might be a more beneficial diet if I was doing a typically routine, with ALL my muscles screaming out for replenishment. Lol
    As it stands, I backload everyday, as I workout everyday. With a everyother day workout, you'd typically have a low-carb day right after your workouts, and backload on your off day to feed your muscles for the upcoming workout.
    Currently dropping 1Lbs a week without any problems... A few more of that stubborn lower ab gunk to go!

    I kinda like the 10 day prep phase of the diet, however, as it fits nicely with a SD.
     
  2. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    @wungun,

    So as I train AM and PM on a 3 day on 1 day off routine I just basically carb backload every night, is that correct?
     
  3. wungun

    wungun Member

    I just don't think this program is cut out for that kinda workout.
    If you have carbs after your AM workout, you're shutting down the "fat burning machine" way earlier than optimally.
    Ideally, you'd skip carbs completely after your AM workout, and have a protein shake. Then nothing but protein until AFTER your PM workout, at which point you load up on carbs.

    AM and PM daily workouts just aren't specified in the book.
    Can you do all your workouts around 4pm?
    With 3 on, 1 off, yes you would backload everyday, except on your last workout day, as your carb backload days are for the NEXT days workout. Then, on your day off, you backload.
     
  4. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    I just add 30g of dextrose to Protein drink after AM workout then just Protein until after PM workout.

    I tried training full body once a day on a 3 on and 1 off was knackered and had too big an impact on family life particulary during the latter part of 10s and 5s so just split it into two sessions
     
  5. wungun

    wungun Member

    Why not upper body one day, lower the next... It works good for me.
    You do NOT want dextrose /carbs after your AM workout.
    You want to prolong the ketosis/fat burning for as long into the day as possible. The longer the better...
    Then fill your gorge after the pm workout :)
     
  6. wungun

    wungun Member

    Been experimenting with a couple of different strategies with this program lately...
    As it states, late afternoon workouts, your insulin sensitivity is low... And your muscles soak up the carbs. But after an hour or so, this effect diminishes and you risk fat storage. So what I've been doing right after my workout, is trying to get in ALL my daily carbs within that window... Pizza, bagels, PB & banana sandwich, bacon/eggs/toast, tuna melts on English muffin, basmati rice, fries/baked potatoes...
    Then, for the rest of the night, fat and protein again... Yogurt, cottage cheese, almonds or walnuts, steak, chicken (with small veg side), etc.
    I'm thinking this will basically get the ketosis started just that little bit sooner before bed, and carried over into the next morning and hopefully get all those carbs/glucose straight to the hungry muscles, and top off their stores before the insulin effect "wakes up" the fat cells.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
  7. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    @wungun,

    I have been using this method for the last couple of weeks whilst close to maintenance calories (2800 - 3000) which has been good as very few hunger pains during the day (I do have breakfast, naughty me) and stuffing my face between 6 and 8pm (1500 - 2000 calories) but cannot see how I am going to be able to increase the calories sufficiently during the upcoming bulk stage as would need to be consuming closer to 3500 calories per day without eating 'crap' foods (high fat foods etc cause me to have stomach problems) or buying weight gain protein powders, have you tried carb backloading on a bulk phase?
     
    HST_Rihad likes this.
  8. wungun

    wungun Member

    The thing about backloading is, in theory, is you don't have to do a Bulk phase... It's all encompassing diet. There are 2 strategies in the plan... One for trimming fat and one for maintaining. I'll have a look at the book tonight and let you know the difference.
     
  9. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Thanks
     
    HST_Rihad likes this.
  10. wungun

    wungun Member

    At a quick glance, the obvious difference is adding a intra workout shake (protien/creatine) and a boost in post workout protein and carb (40-100g of glucose) supplements.
    Also, preworkout shake with more protein) 30g) and MCT (coconut milk or oil, 3 tbs)
    On your off days, you will backload as normal the night before (remember, you eat for the next days workout). On my plan (cutting) I do a low carb day, the day before my off day.
     
  11. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    @wungun,

    How is your CBL going?

    What are your thoughts on my current situation detailed below (I posted this in my own training log last week)

    "Over the last 4 weeks my average daily calorie intake was 3045 (approx averages - carbs 32% (245 g) / Protein 41.5% (316 g) / Fat 26.5% (89 g)) and I have lost 1.2 lb so can only assume that my maintenance level has increased from what used to be around 3000 to nearer 3200 unless this is the norm with carb backloading at maintenance / surplus calories?"

    For the last two weeks calorie intake is an average of slightly under 3200 (3192) but I am still slightly down on body weight - today weighed in at 178 lbs (down 0.4 lbs from last Friday) so a 3200 calorie intake is nearly body weight x 18 which in my understanding should be a bulk, again is norm with carb backloading (i.e. for weight gain you need s**t loads of calories over what is considered the'norm'), for the record I do not normally have issues with weight gain as have been at 220+ lbs before I started back training 3 years ago!!!!
     
  12. wungun

    wungun Member

    Myself, I am still coming down on "weight"... And I know it's fat that is coming off, for the most part. I am STILL progressing with ever higher PR's (cycled back thru 10's then 5's again).
    I would ask you, how do you look in the mirror in the mornings? Flat and getting smaller, or full and getting defined and cut?
    Sounds to me like you're right on course! Up your calories some more if you like, 3400 or so... If you hit the point where you're no longer losing, you will still be recompositing your body fat/muscle with backloading, over the long haul.
     
  13. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Bit odd really, fuller with more definition but the calipers tell a different story (slight increase of 1mm for the JP3). Main problem is getting the calories down, consume around 1200 to 1300 (about 20g of carbs) during the day before the evening workout (have dropped the AM workout) and then around 1900 to 2000 post workout (240g + carbs)
     
  14. wungun

    wungun Member

    1mm could just be water weight... Calipers just aren't that accurate to begin with. I'd only rely on them as a tool to measure long term progress.
    You maybe pushing it pre-backloading with the calories...
    I'm usually under 700 calories thru the day, and sometimes even HALF of that, pre-workout.
    I usually sip on a thermos of green tea with coconut milk all day, a few BCAA'S for lunch with a cup of Greek yogurt or cup of cottage cheese, a small handful of almonds, maybe a piece of extra old cheddar...
    Sometimes a half scoop of protein powder with coconut milk with lunch too, but usually I'll have that about an hour pre workout.
     
  15. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    I could not operate on 700 calories or lower during the day what with training full body 5/6 days per week but then I am attempting to bulk, will just have to find a way of eating more at night, may have to eat pizzas and cakes!!!!
     
  16. wungun

    wungun Member

    From what you said, bodyweight X 18 is usually a Bulk intake, but you are still slightly coming down in weight (fat) , is a good testimony to backloading! I think you're right at the ideal spot to build muscle and lose fat...depending on where your BF percentage is currently at, your fat loss will no doubt slow down before too long (adaptation response). But when you consider just how much fat weight the body carries all over, not just in the belly and love handles, it's no doubt a substantial bit of "useless" weight. I wouldn't be too concerned about dropping less than half a pound a week.
     
  17. wungun

    wungun Member

    How long have you been backloading? I'm at a point now that I typically dont even feel hungry (and certainly not starving) until pre workout. Which is a great motivator, reward response, post workout!
    I have no doubt you're on a "bulk", despite a little weight coming off... Give it 1 or 2 cycles and see how you're progressing. Take measurements as well as caliper readings.
    With backloading, you should basically throw away the notion of gaining 20LBS of "mass" in a bulking phase, and starving yourself afterwards to get back to where you were, and hope you don't cook-off all your gains.
     
  18. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Since beginning of August, initially calories were averaging 2700 per day that kept my weight fairly stable (178.4-179.6 lbs) for four weeks then decided to bulk so increased calories to 3000+ from the end of August and initially weight dropped to 178 (from 179.6) and since has remained between 178.0 and 178.6.

    Will just stay with the programme for a couple of cycles as you say and see what happens, just getting round the notion you do not have to add 20 lbs then cut, but then again I do believe you still have to ensure that more calories are consumed than expended to ensure muscle growth, it is just a matter of finding the sweet spot I suppose.
     
  19. wungun

    wungun Member

    Also, I'm wondering if maybe you're over training? 6 full body workouts a week is likely too much... Or are you doing an upper/lower split like me?
    About calories, I also started out in a rather big deficit and then started to add calories back in, 300 or 400 more a day, and I was STILL dropping fat!
    I've since found a sweet spot, like you.
     
  20. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    In respect of training I currently do full body training with the following exercises on a 3 day on 1 day off with 4 increments in each block based on a % of previous cycles projected 1rm (15's are 52.5%, 57.5%, 62.5%, 67.5% - 10's are 70%, 72.5%, 75%, 77.5% - 5's are 80%, 82.5%. 85%, 87.5%)

    Routine A - Barbell Flat Bench / Bent over Rows / Military Press / Rear Squat / Calf Raise (not HST)
    Routine B - Dips / Landmine Press / Barbell Hack Squat / Deadlift (not HST) / Calf Raise (not HST)
    Routine C - Barbell Incline Bench / Landmine Rows / BTN Press / Front Squat / Calf Raise (not HST)

    In respect of managing fatigue / prevent overtraining I follow a total reps per muscle group to suit Prilepins Table (www.powerliftingwatch.com/files/prelipins.pdf) so based on that table (the last method etc of calculating etc) I will be using the following guidelines, daily will aim for INOL of 0.6 giving a weekly INOL of between 3 and 3.6, so reps are as follows

    15's will be between 20 - 25 reps, 10's will be 15 - 18 reps and 5's will be 8 - 12 reps, legs are approximately 25 to 30% higher in rep count and calf raises are varying loads to suit 25 reps and above. so at the beginning of the 15's will aim for say 25 reps (set of 15 short rest (20-30 seconds) then attempt another 10 with short rest again where required) reducing down to 20 reps for the last session in that block and repeat this in 10's and 5's.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014

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