creatine and caffeine

I've found this:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Another common dietary component is caffeine. Caffeine is known to boost the activity of the transport system that shuttles creatine from the bloodstream across into the muscle cells. It also increases the amount of adrenaline coursing through the blood, which should also encourage uptake of creatine. A team of Belgian researchers therefore recently investigated the effect of taking creatine supplements with caffeine. They anticipated that caffeine would lend a helping hand to creatine. They were surprised and disappointed to find the opposite - caffeine actually counteracted creatine's positive effects! ('Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading', Vandenberghe et al, J Appl Physiol, vol 80, pp452-457, 1996).
Click to expand...
And this:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Some studies suggest reduced effectiveness of creatine when consumed with caffeine (Vandenburghe, et al 1996; Hespel, et al 2002), but these have flaws. In Vandenburghe's study, subjects when using creatine together with caffeine (C+C) had lower levels of performance than when they were administered creatine alone © (when also compared to placebo). However as CP levels were similar in C+C and C, this indicates that caffeine did not impair the transportation of creatine into muscle.
The studies were not under strict guidelines, which may explain the reduced performance: There was not a significant clearance period of creatine from stores before subjects were given the next test. Also, there was only 3 weeks rest, which may show signs of creatine storage; 4 weeks is more likely to give full clearance. So, if C+C was tested first, there may have still been some creatine in the stores. For optimal study design, a 6-week gap seems appropriate.
Another large flaw was that there was only 20 hours between the last caffeine dose and the C+C test results. This is more than enough time for caffeine to be out the system, i.e. caffeine could have had no effect (we have already showed it didn't affect muscle uptake).
Earlier studies by Greenhaff, et al (1993) where hot tea/coffee were used to promote dissolvation and absorption of creatine, showed enhanced performance, which contradicts these findings.
Hespel, et al (2002) were different in their study design but there were still a number of flaws mainly due to the timings of caffeine intake, similar to that of Vandenburghe et al in this respect.
It is crucial to bear in mind that the ultimate limiting factor for exercise performance is hydration state (I cannot emphasise enough the importance of this), and one of the positive effects of creatine is cell volumisation, i.e. more fluid into muscles. If there is insufficient fluid in the body, then valuable extracellular water will be drawn into muscles. Caffeine in higher quantities is a diuretic, and may reduce hydration state; this could explain reduced performance and is easily rectified by drinking plenty of fluid whilst on a creatine cycle.
There is nothing wrong with taking creatine in a caffeinated beverage, nor with using caffeine pills pre-workout whilst on a creatine cycle, as long as you drink plenty of fluid throughout the day.
Click to expand...
Who is right? :confused:
 
hmmm, this is serious. I've started taking creatine and was surprised that I have experienced 0 gains in almost a month... it could be due to other factors, but it wouldn't shock me if my daily high intake of creatine does affect it....
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Techo @ April 30 2004,12:28)]I've started taking creatine and was surprised that I have experienced 0 gains in almost a month... it could be due to other factors, but it wouldn't shock me if my daily high intake of creatine does affect it....
Click to expand...
Maybe it's you, there are some people that don't 'respond' to creatine. I've started taking creatine from a month too and, just like you, I have experienced 0 gains. I'm drinking only 2/3 espresso a day.
Have you done the loading phase? How many grams/day are you taking?
 
No loading phase for me becuase Bryan, Aaron, and other say it doesn't matter after a certain period... it builds up over time... I've been taking it well over a month so it should definately be built up by now... As far as dosage is concerned, I take 5g daily in the morning in my protein shake. Thats usually before my workout. I'll admit that I do jog 1-3 miles 2-4 times a week so that could affecrt things... still I'm about 600 calories over maintenance...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Nemesis7884 @ April 26 2004,12:53)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Caffeine does not inhibit the uptake of creatine into cells.
Click to expand...
writes blade in the faq....is that correct? because everywhere else im reading someting else?
Click to expand...
Blade posted those comments in the FAQ section but I wrote them.

Caffeine does not inhibit creatine uptake. However, the two intereact to effect contractile properties in sometimes oposite directions.

As caffeine is a diuretic, your lack of weight gain could be due to water loss.

Obviously, if your diet doesn't support muscle growth, no amount of creatine is going to make up for that. Creatine is not a drug...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ April 30 2004,11:17)]Obviously, if your diet doesn't support muscle growth, no amount of creatine is going to make up for that. Creatine is not a drug...
Click to expand...
Right now I'm 81Kg (~180lbs), I've started the bulk phase in March, my starting weight was 74Kg (163lbs).
I drink usually ~5l of water every day.
I've started creatine supplementation (with no loading phase) on April 1st (5g/day) and I've seen no difference between the gains I had in March.
 
2-3 pounds is what one can expect. If you don't load, then it will take about 30 days. The thing is, normal bodyweight fluctuations can even be larger than 2-3 pounds so its effects can be hidden.

High-carb diets show the most effect with creatine. I generally eat low carb, and creatine does not give me a "jump" in bodyweight. However, at times when I load and keep carbs and calories high, I definately get a "fuller" look and feel. Plus, my performance in the gym seems to be better.

So, people looking for drug like effects likely won't see them. However, the benefits of taking creatine are not in question. Take for example this STUDY. creatine's effect on satellite cell activity is very desireable for more rapid growth from your training. There are many other benefits as well, many of which you can also find in the articles section of this website.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ May 01 2004,2:31)]2-3 pounds is what one can expect. If you don't load, then it will take about 30 days.
Click to expand...
So I will see the effects only from now on. I'm starting to cut right now :confused:
Will I have some beneficial effect from creatine, even if I'm cutting? I do not intend to go on a low carb, I will keep my usual eating behaviour, reducing the total calories intake.
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ May 01 2004,2:31)]So, people looking for drug like effects likely won't see them.
Click to expand...
I'm not looking for any drug like effect, really. Before starting creatine supplementation, I've read some articles and users reviews, so I was expecting more visible results. Maybe it's because i've already had big strength gains with HST, so I can't even notice the gains creatine is giving to me.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There is nothing wrong with taking creatine in a caffeinated beverage, nor with using caffeine pills pre-workout whilst on a creatine cycle, as long as you drink plenty of fluid throughout the day.
Click to expand...

...thats what I suspected. Does anyone know the volume of fluids lost per mg of caffeine? There must be some sort of studies on the diuretic effects of caffeine somewhere. I would think that if I pound 4 cups of "half and half" (50% caffinated) during the day, I'll be better off then taking a 100 mg caffeine pill. Even though 4 cups of half and half would possibly equal 200 mg or more. That would be becuase the 200mg of half and half would come with 32+ oz of fluids. However, if I take 200 mg of caffeine pills and focus on drinking lots of water during the day I should be good as well.

Any comments? Agreements or disagreements here?
 
You can't really think of caffeine equalling some fixed amount of fluid loss. The body is a biological system. Its analog, not digital. ;)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ May 04 2004,1:32)]You can't really think of caffeine equalling some fixed amount of fluid loss. The body is a biological system. Its analog, not digital. ;)
Click to expand...
What a wonderful thought! And not just relating to this subject but to many areas of weight loss and weight lifting.

Thanks Bryan
JWJ
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ May 04 2004,1:32)]You can't really think of caffeine equalling some fixed amount of fluid loss. The body is a biological system. Its analog, not digital. ;)
Click to expand...
Now you're talking my lingo =)

Thanks Bryan!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top