Creatine in the 15s

Discussion in 'Anything and Everything about dietary supplements' started by imported_etothepii, Jun 26, 2007.

  1. One of the things I had read about creatine (I'm trying it for the first time), is that it decreases the lactic acid burn. First, is this accurate? Second, isn't the burn what we want in the 15s?

    If both of the above are true, and you can't just get the creatine out of your system each time you start a new cycle, would that suggest doing 2x15?
     
  2. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    I'm not sure about the chemical effects of creatine and lactic acid, but it does increase the amount of water in your cells. Intuitively, that may decrease the lactic acid buildup.

    I see no point of creatine in the 15's. It's used for mostly stength purposes, hence the 5's and post-5's/negatives.
     
  3. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    But as a question, it was truly insightful!
     
  4. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    <div>
    (etothepii @ Jun. 26 2007,09:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One of the things I had read about creatine (I'm trying it for the first time), is that it decreases the lactic acid burn. First, is this accurate? Second, isn't the burn what we want in the 15s?

    If both of the above are true, and you can't just get the creatine out of your system each time you start a new cycle, would that suggest doing 2x15?</div>
    There isn't really any reason NOT to take creatine. Let me offer some reasons why.

    Improved cellular energy state (creatine phosphate)
    Improved contractile force/sensitivity 1
    Enhanced satellite cell differentiation 2,3
    Enhanced myogenic regulatory factor expression 4

    1. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2004 Dec;287(6):C1589-95. Epub 2004 Jul 28
    2. Dangott B, Schultz E, Mozdziak PE. Dietary creatine monohydrate supplementation increases satellite cell mitotic activity during compensatory hypertrophy. Int J Sports Med. 2000 Jan;21(1):13-6.
    3. Vierck JL, Icenoggle DL, Bucci L, Dodson MV. The effects of ergogenic compounds on myogenic satellite cells. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 May;35(5):769-76.
    4. Willoughby DS, Rosene JM. Effects of oral creatine and resistance training on myogenic regulatory factor
    expression. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jun;35(6):923-9.

    And there are many more examples of the benefits of creatine with weight training.

    -bryan
     
  5. I would think that if one of the benefits of creatine is reducing the production of lactic acid, and one of the reasons for the 15s is to flush the muscles with lactic acid, then we have a conflict.

    I wouldn't say not to take creatine because of it's other benefits. I would just say that if you are taking creatine, and in the 15s you don't feel the burn like you should, pump out some more reps, or even another set until you get a good burn.

    Seem logical?
     
  6. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    <div>
    (etothepii @ Jul. 19 2007,19:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would think that if one of the benefits of creatine is reducing the production of lactic acid, and one of the reasons for the 15s is to flush the muscles with lactic acid, then we have a conflict.

    I wouldn't say not to take creatine because of it's other benefits. I would just say that if you are taking creatine, and in the 15s you don't feel the burn like you should, pump out some more reps, or even another set until you get a good burn.

    Seem logical?</div>
    Where are you reading that creatine reduces lactate production?
     
  7. <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">3. Buffer Lactic Acid build-up

    New research has shown that creatine can help buffer lactic acid that builds-up in the muscles during exercise. This leads to that nasty burning feel you get in your muscles. Scientifically it is a complicated process - basically the creatine bonds with a Hydrogen ion and that helps delay the build up of lactic acid. More research needs to be done to see if this point is true.
    </div>
    Creatine site

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Creatine Reduces Lactic Acid

    Lactic acid is a by-product of another energy-producing process in muscles known as glycolysis, which kicks in when the ATP-CP system begins to run out of gas. Elevated lactic acid is recognized as a major cause of fatigue. As lactic acid levels rise with continued muscular effort, the increasing acidity inactivates the enzymes used in glycolysis, thus limiting the energy available to muscles. Fatigue soon sets in and remains until the system can restore a balance that is more favourable to exercise. By helping to neutralise excess lactic acid, CP reduces the consequences of lactic acidosis, and thus, makes muscles more resistant to fatigue. In one study creatine supplementation resulted in a 41% drop in lactic acid concentrations in muscle tissue. In another part of the same study, creatine supplementation increased the amount of work performed by 5% while lowering muscle lactate levels by 18%.</div>
    Article

    It seems that any web site touting the benefits of creatine state that it &quot;buffers&quot; the build up of lactic acid, whatever that may mean.
     
  8. SweetDaddyPatty

    SweetDaddyPatty New Member

    I think the idea is that it somehow reduces the burning sensation caused by the lactic acid, like a rolaids. It doesn't prevent your body from actually producing the lactic acid.
     
  9. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There isn't really any reason NOT to take creatine. Let me offer some reasons why.</div>

    $$$
     
  10. <div>
    (colby2152 @ Jul. 21 2007,15:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There isn't really any reason NOT to take creatine. Let me offer some reasons why.</div>

    $$$</div>
    I just bought 1000mg for $16. So $32 for more than a year's worth is pretty cheap, IMO.
     
  11. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    1000mg? or 1000grams?

    btw it's great to see bryan postin! yaaaaay! [​IMG]
     
  12. Duh. Grams. Sorry!!!! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. adb1x1

    adb1x1 Member

    I have a related question:

    I've read many opinions on creatine use during cutting for a contest.

    Most all without any hard evidence.

    The usual suggestion is to stop creatine intake about 4-6 weeks out.

    The supposed reason is to help remove excess fluid from the body; but this seems very counter-productive, because it seems this would cause fluid stores in the muscle to be depleted.

    Does creatine actually cause fluid gain in those areas (like love handles, etc) that requires one to discontinue use before a bb contest?

    This seems very much like down home doctorin' to me.

    Anthony
     
  14. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    whoa, 16 bucks for 1kg, that's crazy haha, i wish there were some place in Australia that had it that cheap! the average is like $30 for 500 grams lol. :s
     
  15. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    <div>
    (adb1x1 @ Jul. 23 2007,19:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have a related question:

    I've read many opinions on creatine use during cutting for a contest.

    Most all without any hard evidence.

    The usual suggestion is to stop creatine intake about 4-6 weeks out.

    The supposed reason is to help remove excess fluid from the body; but this seems very counter-productive, because it seems this would cause fluid stores in the muscle to be depleted.

    Does creatine actually cause fluid gain in those areas (like love handles, etc) that requires one to discontinue use before a bb contest?

    This seems very much like down home doctorin' to me.

    Anthony</div>
    Creatine is stored within cells or it is excreted. Whether a person is holding water or not is due to the kidneys and sodium/water balance. Creatine uptake is actually sodium dependant, meaning as creatine is taken up into cells from the extracellular space, so is sodium...that's a beneficial effect if you are trying to move water out of the extracellular spaces.

    Over the years, I have never had a person, who I was assisting, have a problem with creatine precontest.

    In addition, the body regulates water balance over the period of hours and perhaps days, not weeks. So if a person wishes to have any supplemental creatine out of the blood stream or body fluids, that would happen in a day or two at most. The creatine that is already in tissues, such as muscle, kidneys will not effect water balance as it is broken down and excreted as creatinine.
     
  16. adb1x1

    adb1x1 Member

    Bryan,

    Thank you so much for an intelligent answer!

    What you said about sodium also makes me wonder if cutting out most sodium the last few days before a contest, while still taking creatine, would be a wise thing.
    Seems such a change might actually have the opposite effect one would desire.

    Anthony
     
  17. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    Hypothesis.

    Mechanical phenomenon, experiment.

    Take a balloon, stretch it. Notice how long it must be pulled before it stretches. Fill the balloon with water, stretch it. Notice how long it must be pulled before it stretches. Also notice how long it becomes with the same stretch force. Compare results. I surmise that the water filled balloon will be stretched sooner and more easily than the empty balloon. It will be pre-stretched if you will. Creatine is known to upregulate water uptake into the cells. As it does so, the cells increase in volume. As we fill the cells with water, we pre-stretch them just like we do with the balloon. I propose that the cells become more sensitive to the load as water fills them.
     
  18. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Bryan, what about side effects of creatine such as creatine toxicity, dehydration, and possible heart problems?
     
  19. XFatMan

    XFatMan New Member

    I took Creatine before I started my first HST cycle for exactly the reason that it would lessen the burn. I really don't know because the burn was really hefty, almost unbearable. But I'll know when I start my second cycle - without Creatine.
    They also say that taking sodium bicarbonate in larger amounts immediately before your training can have the same minimizing effect. Then again, they can give you the runs as well, which in turn is nothing that you want to be reminded of during squats, I suppose.
     

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