Cutting Diet

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Lance, Jun 26, 2004.

  1. Lance

    Lance New Member

    Recap:

    Okay can we all agree on this?

    # of meals per day is irrelevant when considering calories, in the end, it's the calories that matter when losing or gaining weight.

    for bodybuilding purposes, you're better off eating several meals to make protein allways readily available

    Is everything settled with these 2 statements?

    If so we can stop this thread, i feel bad having my name on a thread that has caused so much controversy, lol. This went from how to cut macronutrient wise to a whole bunch of other things. Not that i care, i'm learning alot, but i'd like some definitive answers so everyone can agree on something! Lol.
     
  2. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    Agreed!
     
  3. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    please stop making things up. These things are way too complex for anyone to figure out intuitively. You need to know the facts behind it.

    Please read these, and you'll better understand the mechanics of protein.

    Protein Myths

    Good luck.

    PS. Here is a highlight.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Utterly, without a doubt, unimportant..

    If 30g of various proteins is still appearing in the blood 8 hours later, what would happen with 2 chicken breasts?

    to all the other comments

    a large meal takes longer to digest than a small meal, so to the actual end result in the body, it is no different.

    Do what keeps you on the diet, and maintaining a sane lifestyle, and keep with it.
     
  5. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    No....



    :D
     
  6. Lance

    Lance New Member

    Allright Aaron,

    So ... lol ...

    Plain and simple, it doesn't matter how many meals you eat. Doesn't matter for protein reasons, caloric reasons, etc. It's all the calories and the macronutrients in the end that matter.

    Correct?

    If so, man, 3 BIG meals a day would sure be a little bit easier to work with then 6.
     
  7. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    Even better Lance, just eat one LARGE meal a day. lol, haha. Huh, that would be easy. What does everyone say about that?
     
  8. Lance

    Lance New Member

    One meal a day would be way too hard. Man, i would be so stuffed i'd be uncomfortable for hours. I think the Warrior Diet followed that though. One big meal a day. Like a warrior. Lol.
     
  9. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    1 meal per day is workable, but not practical
     
  10. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    I was joking. One meal a day is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. I pity the poor foo who eats one meal a day.
     
  11. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    enough nonsense. You read the link I posted for you, right?
     
  12. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    So many people are willing to have a crush on eating like a caveman, but dont seem to want to eat once every couple of days...
     
  13. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    Yes sir Mr. BoSox. Anything you say Mr. BoSox. I apologies sir. lol, ok now, enough nonsense...

    I did read the link, yes, about protien myths. But I would then have to assume Bryan is all knowing, since he is the only one who published the information. Not to knock his work, but I'd like additional info if you can provide it. Wouldn't you agree?
     
  14. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    no. If you go to the last page, and hopefully you did read all of them, you'll see 15 references. Good luck!
     
  15. If they were lucky, and you don't have to go back that far, just look to the poor in this world today, they would look at us as if we were insane, discussing whether to eat 3 times or more a day [​IMG]
     
  16. Nemesis7884

    Nemesis7884 New Member

    Regular meal frequency creates more appropriate insulin sensitivity and lipid profiles compared with irregular meal frequency in healthy lean women.

    Farshchi HR, Taylor MA, Macdonald IA.
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    Impact of meal timing and frequency on the twenty-four-hour leptin rhythm.

    Fogteloo AJ, Pijl H, Roelfsema F, Frolich M, Meinders AE.

    Objective: To study the influence of changes in meal timing and frequency on the diurnal rhythm of leptin and on the 24-hour profile of insulin and glucose. Patients and Methods: Five obese women were studied twice during a weight-maintaining diet in either 3 daily or 8 day and night equal portions. Blood was sampled for 24-hour profiles of leptin and insulin. Results: During the 8-meal intervention, the 24-hour rhythm of leptin changed significantly: the amplitude decreased (p = 0.0089) and the acrophase was delayed by 168 min (p = 0.021). Also, 8 small insulin secretion peaks occurred instead of the 3 postprandial high insulin peaks. Conclusion: The dispersion of food intake over 24 h affects the diurnal leptin rhythm. These changes could not be attributed to changes in circadian timing or energy balance. Instead, changes in daily insulin secretion profiles might play a role.
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    Effects of meal frequency and high-fibre rye-bread diet on glucose and lipid metabolism and ileal excretion of energy and sterols in ileostomy subjects.

    Lundin EA, Zhang JX, Lairon D, Tidehag P, Aman P, Adlercreutz H, Hallmans G.

    OBJECTIVE:: To investigate the effect of a rye, high-fibre diet (HFD) vs a wheat, low-fibre diet (LFD), meal frequency, nibbling (Nib, seven times a day) or ordinary (Ord, three times a day), and their combined effects on blood glucose, insulin, lipids, urinary C-peptide and ileal excretion of energy, cholesterol and bile acids in humans. DESIGN:: LFD period with Nib or Ord meal frequency followed by an HFD diet with Nib or Ord meal frequency in randomized, crossover design. SETTING:: Outpatients of ileostomy volunteers were called for an investigation in research word. SUBJECTS:: A total of 10 subjects (two female subjects, age 34 and 51 y; eight males, mean age 54.4 y, range 43-65 y) participated in the experiment. All subjects were proctocolectomized for ulcerative colitis (mean 16.0 y, range 8-29 y before the study). INTERVENTION:: In total, 10 ileostomy subjects started with LFD for 2 weeks, the first week on either Nib (five subjects) or Ord (five subjects) and the second week on the other meal frequencies, in a crossover design, followed by a wash-out week, and continued with HFD period for 2 weeks in the same meal frequency manner. All foods consumed in both Nib or Ord regimens were identical and a high-fibre rye bread was used in the HFD period and a low-fibre wheat bread in the LFD period. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:: Day-profiles of blood glucose, insulin and lipids, blood lipids before and after dietary intervention, and excretion of steroids in the effluents and C-peptide in the urine. RESULTS:: During the Nib regimen, plasma glucose and insulin peaks were lower at the end of the day with HFD compared with LFD. Urinary C-peptide excretion was significantly higher in the day-time on LFD compared with HFD (LFD-Ord vs HFD-Ord, P<0.01; LFD-Nib vs HFD-Nib, P<0.01). Plasma free-cholesterol, total cholesterol, triglycerides and phospholipids were significantly higher (P<0.05) after LFD than after HFD with the Nib regimen. A higher excretion of energy (P<0.05) and chenodeoxycholic acid (P<0.05) were observed with HFD compared with LFD regardless of meal frequency. A higher daily excretion of cholic acid, total bile acids, cholesterol, net cholesterol and net sterols (P<0.05) was observed on HFD compared with LFD with the Nib regimen. CONCLUSIONS:: An HFD decreased insulin secretion measured as a decreased excretion of C-peptide in urine and as decreased plasma insulin peaks at the end of the day during a Nib regimen. The smoother glycaemic responses at the end of the day during a Nib regimen may be a consequence of a second meal phenomenon, possibly related to the nature of dietary fibre complex. SPONSORSHIP:: This study was supported by grants from the Swedish Council of Forestry and Agricultural Research (SJFR).European Journal of Clinical Nutrition advance online publication, 21 April 2004; doi:10.1038/sj.ejcn.1601985
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    Decreased thermic effect of food after an irregular compared with a regular meal pattern in healthy lean women.

    Farshchi HR, Taylor MA, Macdonald IA.

    OBJECTIVES: To investigate the impact of irregular meal frequency on body weight, energy intake, appetite and resting energy expenditure in healthy lean women. DESIGN: Nine healthy lean women aged 18-42 y participated in a randomised crossover trial consisting of three phases over a total of 43 days. Subjects attended the laboratory at the start and end of phases 1 and 3. In Phase 1 (14 days), subjects were asked to consume similar things as normal, but either on 6 occasions per day (regular meal pattern) or follow a variable predetermined meal frequency (between 3 and 9 meals/day) with the same total number of meals over the week. In Phase 2 (14 days), subjects continued their normal diet as a wash-out period. In Phase 3 (14 days), subjects followed the alternative meal pattern to that followed in Phase 1. Subjects recorded their food intake for three predetermined days during the irregular period when they were eating 9, 3 and 6 meals/day. They also recorded their food intake on the corresponding days during the regular meal pattern period. Subjects fasted overnight prior to each laboratory visit, at which fasting resting metabolic rate (RMR) was measured by open-circuit indirect calorimetry. Postprandial metabolic rate was then measured for 3 h after the consumption of a milkshake test meal (50% CHO, 15% protein and 35% fat of energy content). Subjects rated appetite before and after the test meal. RESULTS: There were no significant differences in body weight and 3-day mean energy intake between the regular and irregular meal pattern. In the irregular period, the mean energy intake on the day when 9 meals were eaten was significantly greater than when 6 or 3 meals were consumed (P=0.0001). There was no significant difference between the 3 days of the regular meal pattern. Subjective appetite measurement showed no significant differences before and after the test meal in all visits. Fasting RMR showed no significant differences over the experiment. The overall thermic effect of food (TEF) over the 3 h after the test meal was significantly lower after the irregular meal pattern (P=0.003). CONCLUSION: Irregular meal frequency led to a lower postprandial energy expenditure compared with the regular meal frequency, while the mean energy intake was not significantly different between the two. The reduced TEF with the irregular meal frequency may lead to weight gain in the long term.
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    Eating patterns and meal frequency of elite Australian athletes.

    Burke LM, Slater G, Broad EM, Haukka J, Modulon S, Hopkins WG.

    We undertook a dietary survey of 167 Australian Olympic team athletes (80 females and 87 males) competing in endurance sports (n = 41), team sports (n = 31), sprint- or skill-based sports (n = 67), and sports in which athletes are weight-conscious (n = 28). Analysis of their 7-day food diaries provided mean energy intakes, nutrient intakes, and eating patterns. Higher energy intakes relative to body mass were reported by male athletes compared with females, and by endurance athletes compared with other athletes. Endurance athletes reported substantially higher intakes of carbohydrate (CHO) than other athletes, and were among the athletes most likely to consume CHO during and after training sessions. Athletes undertaking weight-conscious sports reported relatively low energy intakes and were least likely to consume CHO during a training session or in the first hour of recovery. On average, athletes reported eating on approximately 5 separate occasions each day, with a moderate relationship between the number of daily eating occasions and total energy intake. Snacks, defined as food or drink consumed between main meals, provided 23% of daily energy intake and were chosen from sources higher in CHO and lower in fat and protein than foods chosen at meals. The dietary behaviors of these elite athletes were generally consistent with guidelines for sports nutrition, but intakes during and after training sessions were often sub-optimal. Although it is of interest to study the periodicity of fluid and food intake by athletes, it is difficult to compare across studies due to a lack of standardized terminology.
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    Effect of frequency of carbohydrate feedings on recovery and subsequent endurance run.

    Siu PM, Wong SH, Morris JG, Lam CW, Chung PK, Chung S.

    PURPOSE: This study examined the effect of feeding pattern of a high glycemic index (GI) meal during a short-term recovery on subsequent endurance capacity. METHODS: Eight men ran at 70% .VO2max on a level treadmill for 90 min (T1) on two occasions, followed by 4-h recovery ® and a further exhaustive run at the same speed (T2). During the R, subjects consumed a prescribed meal with a GI of 77 in either a "gorging" (GOR) or "nibbling" (NIB) intake pattern, providing 1.5 g carbohydrate (CHO) per kilogram body mass. In the GOR trial, the foods were consumed in a single bolus, 20 min after the end of T1. In the NIB trial, the same quantity of food was ingested in three equal portions; the first consumed 20 min after the end of T1 and the remainder at hourly intervals thereafter. RESULTS: The run time during T2 was similar between trials (GOR vs NIB: 68.1 +/- 8.2 vs 66.8 +/- 8.7 min, P > 0.05). However, CHO utilization was lower and fat utilization higher during T2 in the GOR trial compared with the NIB trial (GOR vs NIB: CHO: 94.4 +/- 11.4 vs 117.6 +/- 10.6 g, P < 0.05; FAT: 55.9 +/- 8.0 vs 44 +/- 8.6 g, P < 0.01). CONCLUSIONS: These results suggest that serial consumption of a high GI meal during a 4-h recovery increased the reliance on CHO oxidation for energy provision during a subsequent run when compared with a single feeding. However, there was no difference in the duration of the exhaustive run after the recovery between the GOR and NIB trials.
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    Effect of meal frequency and timing on physical performance.

    Hawley JA, Burke LM.

    Two areas of sports nutrition in which the periodicity of eating has been studied relate to: (1) the habitually high energy intakes of many athletes, and (2) the optimization of carbohydrate (CHO) availability to enhance performance. The present paper examines how the timing and frequency of food and fluid intake can assist the athlete and physically-active person to improve their exercise performance in these areas. Frequent eating occasions provide a practical strategy allowing athletes to increase energy intake while concomitantly reducing the gastric discomfort of infrequent large meals. The optimization of CHO stores is a special challenge for athletes undertaking prolonged training or competition sessions. This is a cyclical process with post-exercise CHO ingestion promoting muscle and liver glycogen re-synthesis; pre-exercise feedings being practised to optimize substrate availability and feedings during exercise providing a readily-available source of exogenous fuel as endogenous stores become depleted. The timing and frequency of CHO intake at these various stages are crucial determinants for optimizing fuel availability to enhance exercise capacity.
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    lyle mc donald on thinkmuscle and his page:

    Meal frequency
    Although discussed to death, serious bodybuilders should be eating 4-6 times per day, period. Three meals per day simply will not cut it for mass gains. The biggest part of this is because it's difficult to consume sufficient calories for mass gains in only three meals. As well, multiple smaller meals keeps a steadier flow of nutrients into the body. Studies have also shown positive benefits of multiple, smaller meals on cholesterol and bodyfat levels (and I'm sure other indices of health). If nothing else, multiple meals typically makes it easier to consume the kind of high-calorie diets needed to sustain mass gains.
    In practice, lifters should be putting something in their mouths food-wise ever 3 hours or so. While I've seen more frequent feedings suggested, I have trouble believing that eating every 2 hours is going to be significantly better than eating every three. That's about how long you'll maintain blood glucose, insulin after a meal. Most proteins take 2-3 hours to fully digest (if not longer) so I see little need to eat protein more often than that.
    Beyond that, arguably the most important meals are breakfast (to halt overnight catabolism) and post-workout. Post workout nutrition is a place I see lifters making major mistakes. I've watched guys at my gym finish their workouts and hang out talking (or flirting) for another 30-60'. There is a window of opportunity where nutrients are more effectively absorbed after a workout. By the hour mark, you've already lost some of the benefit. In my opinion, you should take something with you (or buy it there) to drink right after your workout. As I'll discuss in a subsequent article, there may be some benefit to consuming nutrients before or halfway through the workout as well. Although guidelines are sparse, typical recommendations for post-workout are 1-1.5 g/kg of carbs and about 1/3rd as much protein.
    A final place to consider meal frequency is right before bedtime and in the middle of the night. Between your last meal and breakfast can be a long time to go without nutrients and anabolism might be better maintained if nutrients are consumed. There is also some data that the gut needs time to 'rest' itself and that round-the-clock eating may hamper that. Another consideration is that sleep should not be compromised to get more nutrients into the body. Since I usually wake up in the middle of the night anyhow (to go to the bathroom), I'll usually have some milk or something while I'm up. If you don't usually wake up in the middle of the night, a shake before bed (containing protein, carbs, fat and fiber) will help to keep a continuous flow of nutrients into your bloodstream.
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Nemesis7884

    what was the point of posting these studies?

    Most are completely seperate issues (and most largely irrelevant anyway) from what we are looking at.

    And lyles commentary is rather old (cira '99), and that commentary is rather different than most of his current thoughts.

     
  18. Nemesis7884

    Nemesis7884 New Member

    dont have the time to take a close look at it, if I do have, ill do some research in my database and post some studies exactly about the issue

    anyway - some weeks ago some folkes discussed on bodyrecomposition.com how to incorporate hst into ud2.0 or a ckd - lyle suggested not to erase carbs at all from your diet, but to restrict them to about 100g/day from what
    50%+ pre/post workout....(without the need of a refeed - although I would at least do 1 per week due to psychological support) what do you think about the idea?

    an interesting experiment could be to start your hst cycle with a low amount of carbs and then to increase carbs in the same way the wheight is increasing through the cycle - this could help to cope with the wheights...or to get back to a normale mass-diet if you were on low carbs before
     
  19. Cliner9er

    Cliner9er New Member

    You would want the opposite actually. For an HST cycle it would be more feasible to have more carbs as workloads are higher (15's) as workload decreases (5's)energy needs would be lower (less carbs). Lyle's rationale was that 100g CHO/day are needed for a more appropriate hormonal mileau for growth.
     
  20. Nemesis7884

    Nemesis7884 New Member

    thats true cliner9er, but thats not what i am talking about - you may want more carbs during 15s but I think the main question is the total workout time - the longer the more carbs do I need, the second thing is that I believe that you are okay with less carbs in your 1. 15s workout but need probably more during the 15rm workout

    its also worth a thought when dieting, to increase total calories when the wheights become heavier...
     

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