endomorphic bodybuilding

kyleman1

New Member
Hi. I am a text book endomorph. I gain muscle fairly easily, but i gain fat even easier. I clearly have problems with insulin because when i eat carbs, i get fat pretty easily. I can eat unlimited protein and fat though.

I want to stick with HST. I want to be able to bodybuild and gain muscle! The dilemma is that adding muscle takes a good amount of carbohydrates. It's too difficult to try and gain muscle on a low carb diet. But a low carb diet is what keeps me lean. If I don't keep my insulin secretions under control (i.e. watch the carbs i eat) then i get fat instantly.

What is the happy medium here?? How can I do HST and put on some serious mass without getting fat at the same time? I basically want to eat as few carbs as possible without comprimising my training

-Kyle
 
kyleman1, I'm in the same boat for carbs.  There's a great thread on vinegar supplementation in this forum that you may be interested in looking at.  Doing this I have been able eat relative low carb and still have enough energy for my workouts(by low carb I'm talking Atkins stage 4 or close to it.  Stage 1 or 2 just won't cut it).  This is working really well for me now.  I'm adding muscle and losing fat.  Granted, the fat loss is extremely slow but I really don't think you can have it both ways.  I take vinegar before every meal that has carbs as well as before I go to bed.  You may want to try to minimize your fat gains at first rather than try to lose fat and gain muscle all in one go.  Everyone is different and it takes time to find your equilibrium.  I keep my carb intake around 100 to 200 grams on workout days and around 100 but usually less on off days.  Timing of carb intake is probably what will make the most dramatic difference for you.  Immediately pre/post workout is when you should have the largest portion of your carbs for the day.  Keep your fat intake to an absolute minimum duing this time because your insulin levels should be relatively high.  The rest of the day, try to get your carb sources from vegetables and/or other low GI sources.

This is what is working for me at the moment but don't get discouraged if it doesn't for you.  Everyone is different and it may just take time to find what your body responds positively to.      
Hope this was helpful.
 
You will not build a significant amount of muscle without at the same time gaining fat at the same time. It is just not feisable, unless you are on some serious anabolics. This has been discussed a zillion times before.
 
Well, even if the topic has come up before, I personally haven't seen it--and I've been combing through the Forum pretty thoroughly. Hey, we tolerate endless threads of "What do you think of my routine?", so I think we can deal with one more this subject, too. It's directly relevant to me and I'm glad Kyle brought it up.

Over the past couple of years I've lost 40 pounds by sticking with a ketogenic program. I made good muscular gains at the same time, but my progress began to slow down a couple of months ago. After reading Bryan's article "Eating for Size" (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html#art_1), I realized I was going to have to eat above and beyond maintenance in order to put on more muscle. I've been pleased with my progress on my first cycle of HST but haven't gained the inches other folks seem to have. I eat very clean, lots of lean protein and vegetables, but that article got me seriously thinking about my diet.

So, starting just a few days ago, I (cautiously!) started ramping up my caloric intake in the form of carbs. After eating some rice and whole grain bread, I noticed an immediate improvement in muscular fullness and hardness--probably water from the carbs, but if it's going to my muscles rather than right beneath my skin, that's fine with me.

I make sure to eat carbs right before and after training, but I've had portions later in the day around dinnertime with no ill effects. So, what I'm going to do is gradually increase my carb intake until I find my carb "set point" (if such a thing exists)--the place where the cost, too much fat, outweighs the benefit--muscular gains. So far I've gained a pound or two and my bodyfat percentage has stayed the same, so it seems to be working.

Over the short term, I'm willing to accept a little more fat to gain muscle. I've lost fat before and can do it again. It's OK as long as I'm gaining more muscle than fat.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (goal220 @ Mar. 25 2005,4:38)]kyleman1, I'm in the same boat for carbs. There's a great thread on vinegar supplementation in this forum that you may be interested in looking at. Doing this I have been able eat relative low carb and still have enough energy for my workouts(by low carb I'm talking Atkins stage 4 or close to it. Stage 1 or 2 just won't cut it). This is working really well for me now. I'm adding muscle and losing fat. Granted, the fat loss is extremely slow but I really don't think you can have it both ways. I take vinegar before every meal that has carbs as well as before I go to bed. You may want to try to minimize your fat gains at first rather than try to lose fat and gain muscle all in one go. Everyone is different and it takes time to find your equilibrium. I keep my carb intake around 100 to 200 grams on workout days and around 100 but usually less on off days. Timing of carb intake is probably what will make the most dramatic difference for you. Immediately pre/post workout is when you should have the largest portion of your carbs for the day. Keep your fat intake to an absolute minimum duing this time because your insulin levels should be relatively high. The rest of the day, try to get your carb sources from vegetables and/or other low GI sources.

This is what is working for me at the moment but don't get discouraged if it doesn't for you. Everyone is different and it may just take time to find what your body responds positively to.
Hope this was helpful.

I've seen that vinegar thread before, and I think your idea sounds like a clever way to improve nutrient partitioning by making sure that carbohydrates are used to refuel muscles rather than for building fat. However, there are two aspects about it that make me think it might not work as well as we'd like it to. Note: Keep in mind that I am hardly an expert on the subject.

First, if memory serves me right, the thread was about how vinegar is useful for making sure that carbohydrates are used to replete glycogen stores when glycogen stores are just about empty, such as when coming off of a very low carb diet. Would vinegar also be able to direct carbohydrates towards glycogen repletion under more normal circumstances where glycogen is not so heavily depleted?

Second, and this is not completely unrelated to the first, glycogen is only significantly depleted during the 15s and, to a lesser extent, the 10s. Glycogen isn't used much during the 5s/negs. Would vinegar be useful even when reps are low(ish) and glycogen stores are not significantly lowered?
 
Thanks everybody.

What I'm starting to realize though is that I actually like my body fat!! From a biological prespective, I am the cream of the crop when it comes to survival. The insulin resistance gene is a valued gene because it means that you can survive easily since you make body fat easily because of excess insulin. On top of this, insulin is an anabolic hormone, so it easy for me to gain muscle mass too!

Any way I slice it, I am the man! I can put on fat and muscle easily! The flab used to #### up my confidence but now I realized that I am the #### and I have the perfect body type for survival. Society seems to think the endomorph is the worst body type, but it doesnt matter. I have confidence in my biology, more than my image. And confidence is confidence!

So all my endomorphic brothers, accept yourselves! We can stack on the mass easily. Be proud! Theres no need to torture ourselves with strict diet and anabolics. Mind change is easier then physical change.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ Mar. 26 2005,5:08)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (goal220 @ Mar. 25 2005,4:38)]
I've seen that vinegar thread before, and I think your idea sounds like a clever way to improve nutrient partitioning by making sure that carbohydrates are used to refuel muscles rather than for building fat.  However, there are two aspects about it that make me think it might not work as well as we'd like it to.  Note: Keep in mind that I am hardly an expert on the subject.  
First, if memory serves me right, the thread was about how vinegar is useful for making sure that carbohydrates are used to replete glycogen stores when glycogen stores are just about empty, such as when coming off of a very low carb diet.  Would vinegar also be able to direct carbohydrates towards glycogen repletion under more normal circumstances where glycogen is not so heavily depleted?
Second, and this is not completely unrelated to the first, glycogen is only significantly depleted during the 15s and, to a lesser extent, the 10s.  Glycogen isn't used much during the 5s/negs.  Would vinegar be useful even when reps are low(ish) and glycogen stores are not significantly lowered?
Your first question is a very good one but I just don`t know the answer to this.

For question 2, I think glycogen actually still is depleted in the 10`s and 5`s. Otherwise, where would your energy be coming from? So I do believe that it is still effective in the 10`s and 5`s (has been for me in the 10`s so far anyway). I always though fat loss was more likely to occur (i.e. lipolysis).

As I am no expert either , it could very well be that I`m off the mark as well. I`ll continue with my vinegar supplementation and report the results in about a month at the end of my cycle.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (kyleman1 @ Mar. 26 2005,11:57)]Thanks everybody.
What I'm starting to realize though is that I actually like my body fat!! From a biological prespective, I am the cream of the crop when it comes to survival. The insulin resistance gene is a valued gene because it means that you can survive easily since you make body fat easily because of excess insulin. On top of this, insulin is an anabolic hormone, so it easy for me to gain muscle mass too!
Any way I slice it, I am the man! I can put on fat and muscle easily! The flab used to #### up my confidence but now I realized that I am the #### and I have the perfect body type for survival. Society seems to think the endomorph is the worst body type, but it doesnt matter. I have confidence in my biology, more than my image. And confidence is confidence!
So all my endomorphic brothers, accept yourselves! We can stack on the mass easily. Be proud! Theres no need to torture ourselves with strict diet and anabolics. Mind change is easier then physical change.
this is the strangest thing I've ever seen at these boards.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Thanks everybody.
What I'm starting to realize though is that I actually like my body fat!! From a biological prespective, I am the cream of the crop when it comes to survival. The insulin resistance gene is a valued gene because it means that you can survive easily since you make body fat easily because of excess insulin. On top of this, insulin is an anabolic hormone, so it easy for me to gain muscle mass too!
Any way I slice it, I am the man! I can put on fat and muscle easily! The flab used to #### up my confidence but now I realized that I am the #### and I have the perfect body type for survival. Society seems to think the endomorph is the worst body type, but it doesnt matter. I have confidence in my biology, more than my image. And confidence is confidence!
So all my endomorphic brothers, accept yourselves! We can stack on the mass easily. Be proud! Theres no need to torture ourselves with strict diet and anabolics. Mind change is easier then physical change.
this is the strangest thing I've ever seen at these boards.
Personally, I think that it is one of the greatest thing I have ever seen at these boards. Congradulations Kyleman, I wish everyone could be as content with their body type as you. Power to de people!
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (baby a @ Mar. 25 2005,2:15)]You will not build a significant amount of muscle without at the same time gaining fat at the same time. It is just not feisable, unless you are on some serious anabolics. This has been discussed a zillion times before.
That is slightly misleading. You CAN gain muscle without gaining significant fat, it just takes a lot longer to gain the muscle if you do it that way.
 
I tend to agree with babya, please note he said significant amount of muscle. Yes, you can build but as you said Tot, the gains will come slower.
 
While I agree that you will inevitably put on fat whenever you put on significant muscle mass, couldn't you shift nutrient partitioning towards muscle so as to minimize fat gain, possibly by using vinegar?

After all, I think it's pretty much accepted that you can shift nutrient partitioning towards fat. (Burger King bulk cycle, anyone?) So isn't it logical that you can, to some extent, shift the balance towards muscle?
 
What you are talking about is the P ratio, basically what this says is that the fatter you are the more fat will be deposited when trying to add calories for a bulk. Inversely the more lean(naturally, not dieted down) you are the more the additional calories go to lean mass. When working out.

Yes, supplementation can help with this, CLA, EFA, ECA, of course others (Clenbuterol) can help. Vinegar I'm not sure about.
 
Im beginning to realize why it is easy for endomorphs to put on muscle. Endomorphs always make too much insulin when we eat carbohydrates. Insulin is an anabolic hormone! Think about it. I make too much of an ANABOLIC HORMONE! That is why endomorphs can put on muscle fairly easily. On the same not, that excess insulin is inevitably going to put some energy away into the fat cells.

From what I understand, an increase in muscle mass leads to an increase in insulin sensitivity. Bigger muscles obviously need more energy so they start to create more insulin receptors which will in turn, allow them to take up energy.

Endomorphs have less insulin receptors then normal people, thus they are prone to insulin resistance off the bat. The less receptors you have, the more insulin will be floating around, and that will hook up with fat cells.

ANYWAYS, im beginning to think that the only solution for an endomorph is to put on as much muscle mass as possible (without AAS). If an endomorph can get enough muscle, his insulin sensitivity will be greater. We just have to be patient and stack on as much muscle as possible. What im getting at is the following.

The skinny kids who can put down cokes all day and not get fat, an endomorph could become like that only by being pure muscle.
 
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