First cut, could really use some help

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(Martin Levac @ Feb. 06 2008,23:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The original poster is trying to cut. His hunger will determine how much he will eat. What he will eat will determine his hunger.

I should add that some will eat over 10k calories every day and still remain hungry.</div>
If his hunger determines what and how much he will eat, then he doesn't need a diet at all. What and how much I eat on a cutting cycle is always determined by the number of calories left for the day - being and staying hungry all day and night or not.

The original poster is not trying to cut, he is cutting. That's different. Trying something always leaves room for failure and therefore mostly leads to one thing: failure.
 
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(XFatMan @ Feb. 07 2008,04:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Feb. 06 2008,23:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The original poster is trying to cut. His hunger will determine how much he will eat. What he will eat will determine his hunger.

I should add that some will eat over 10k calories every day and still remain hungry.</div>
If his hunger determines what and how much he will eat, then he doesn't need a diet at all. What and how much I eat on a cutting cycle is always determined by the number of calories left for the day - being and staying hungry all day and night or not.

The original poster is not trying to cut, he is cutting. That's different. Trying something always leaves room for failure and therefore mostly leads to one thing: failure.</div>
There is a persistent misunderstanding in this thread about calorie quantity. This misunderstanding stems from the assumption that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. This assumption in turn stems from the misunderstanding of the metabolism of the three calorie sources. Especially fat. We know how carbs are processed. We eat carbs, blood glucose rises, insulin production rises, blood glucose is stored either as glycogen or as fat.

The pathway for metabolism of fat is entirely different from that of carbs or protein and does not include storage.

Does not include storage.

The fat we eat is not stored.

There is no mechanism to do so.

It is either used or excreted.
 
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(Martin Levac @ Feb. 07 2008,06:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There is a persistent misunderstanding in this thread about calorie quantity. This misunderstanding stems from the assumption that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. This assumption in turn stems from the misunderstanding of the metabolism of the three calorie sources. Especially fat. We know how carbs are processed. We eat carbs, blood glucose rises, insulin production rises, blood glucose is stored either as glycogen or as fat.

The pathway for metabolism of fat is entirely different from that of carbs or protein and does not include storage.

Does not include storage.

The fat we eat is not stored.

There is no mechanism to do so.

It is either used or excreted.</div>
I think you need to revise your knowledge on that topic. This article explains how it works and coincides with what I have learned from my visits to nutritionists and sports physicians.
 
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(XFatMan @ Feb. 07 2008,05:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Feb. 07 2008,06:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There is a persistent misunderstanding in this thread about calorie quantity. This misunderstanding stems from the assumption that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. This assumption in turn stems from the misunderstanding of the metabolism of the three calorie sources. Especially fat. We know how carbs are processed. We eat carbs, blood glucose rises, insulin production rises, blood glucose is stored either as glycogen or as fat.

The pathway for metabolism of fat is entirely different from that of carbs or protein and does not include storage.

Does not include storage.

The fat we eat is not stored.

There is no mechanism to do so.

It is either used or excreted.</div>
I think you need to revise your knowledge on that topic. This article explains how it works and coincides with what I have learned from my visits to nutritionists and sports physicians.</div>
The article says about dietary fats that can't be used &quot;...a significant amount ends up being stored as body fat in the adipose tissue.&quot;

In all the literature available to us through the internet, there is nothing that shows how dietary fats are stored. Conversely, there is ample evidence that humans eating no carbs or very low carbs combined with high amounts of dietary fats consistently lose their own fat stores at a rate proportionate with the amount of fat they eat. The more they eat, the faster they lose their fat stores. I can only conclude that there is no mechanism to store fat.

I think it is you, XFatMan, that needs to read more than a single article as the source for your knowledge. I have already provided a link to an encyclopedia of knowledge about carbs, fats and proteins. Go and read. Here is the link again:

http://www.lowcarb.ca/

With all due respect, XFatMan, I don't presume to tell you what to do but having read your posts with interest here, I think you would do well to open your mind and learn everything you can about how to lose that fat. Including knowledge that go against everything you already hold as the truth.
 
My knowledge is not based on a single article, it is based on what I know from nutritionists and physicians. And I really think they know more than you claim to know because they are pretty successful in their area. My mind has always been open because otherwise I wouldn't survive in my profession. I'm pretty flexible and I'm not afraid to admit that I was wrong or to change my opinion publicly. But some things are simply a matter of trust, and I trust successful professionals who hold diplomas from respected institutions on that topic more than someone with an encyclopedia on the topic on the shelf or whatever.
 
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(XFatMan @ Feb. 07 2008,06:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My knowledge is not based on a single article, it is based on what I know from nutritionists and physicians. And I really think they know more than you claim to know because they are pretty successful in their area. My mind has always been open because otherwise I wouldn't survive in my profession. I'm pretty flexible and I'm not afraid to admit that I was wrong or to change my opinion publicly. But some things are simply a matter of trust, and I trust successful professionals who hold diplomas from respected institutions on that topic more than someone with an encyclopedia on the topic on the shelf or whatever.</div>
My knowledge is based on meticulous analysis of everything. Including second opinions. Further, the only person I trust is myself.
 
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(Martin Levac @ Feb. 06 2008,22:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Feb. 06 2008,18:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Feb. 06 2008,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">We eat because we're hungry. This is a fundamental principle.</div>
Not if you are bulking. For those of us who have to eat over 4000 calories a day to grow, you almost forget what it's like to be hungry. At least until it comes time to cut...</div>
The original poster is trying to cut. His hunger will determine how much he will eat. What he will eat will determine his hunger.

I should add that some will eat over 10k calories every day and still remain hungry.</div>
Well, you did say 'fundamental' principle, which implies that it always applies.

Anyway, anyone who lets hunger determine how much they eat during a cut is not going to see much success.

Hunger is determined by a lot more than what and how much you eat.
 
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(Totentanz @ Feb. 07 2008,08:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Feb. 06 2008,22:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Feb. 06 2008,18:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Feb. 06 2008,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">We eat because we're hungry. This is a fundamental principle.</div>
Not if you are bulking. For those of us who have to eat over 4000 calories a day to grow, you almost forget what it's like to be hungry. At least until it comes time to cut...</div>
The original poster is trying to cut. His hunger will determine how much he will eat. What he will eat will determine his hunger.

I should add that some will eat over 10k calories every day and still remain hungry.</div>
Well, you did say 'fundamental' principle, which implies that it always applies.

Anyway, anyone who lets hunger determine how much they eat during a cut is not going to see much success.

Hunger is determined by a lot more than what and how much you eat.</div>
I did not say hunger was determined by how much we eat. I said by what we eat. It then determines how much we eat. Once we understand this fundamental principle, we can then select foods according to how hungry they make us so that in turn we can predict how much we will eat. The more hungry they make us, the more we eat. Conversely, the less hungry they make us, the less we eat.

If you prefer, you could think of how soon to the next meal instead. It's not the complete picture but it makes it a bit more clear. The sooner to the next meal, the more we eat. The later to the next meal, the less we eat.

I was not kidding about some who eat over 10k calories per day and still remain hungry even as they go to bed. They can eat so much and still be hungry because the food they eat makes it possible. They sip or nibble on some form of refined carbs. Carbs make us hungry sooner than fats.
 
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(XFatMan @ Feb. 07 2008,04:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The original poster is not trying to cut, he is cutting. That's different. Trying something always leaves room for failure and therefore mostly leads to one thing: failure.</div>
&quot;Do or do not... there is no try.&quot;
 
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(TunnelRat @ Feb. 07 2008,13:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(XFatMan @ Feb. 07 2008,04:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The original poster is not trying to cut, he is cutting. That's different. Trying something always leaves room for failure and therefore mostly leads to one thing: failure.</div>
&quot;Do or do not... there is no try.&quot;</div>
But when we don't know how to do, all we can do is try.
 
I've noticed that my &quot;Member rating&quot; has been dropped from 2.64 to 2.53.

I've said it before and I say it again. If you are so childish as to view this number as a representation of my worth, then I ask you, whomever you are, to continuously lower this number until it reaches 0. Then, we will be able to go on to more responsible behavior. Because clearly, when this number does reach 0, there will be no other way for you to judge and show my worth but by writing it in your own words. When that happens, we will in turn be able to fully judge your worth.

Thank you.
 
1st off im not sure why anyone would worry too much about the ratings (getting or giving). its the nature of the internet.......much like the real hwy i dont let someone flipping me off (or flipping someone off) define me as a person.

even this debate isnt so much about &quot;right&quot; or &quot;wrong&quot; its more about ones approach to eating.

*barely relevent story*
at work the other day folks were talking about a good gas mileage/hybrid vehicles b/c the price of the commute was killing them. i didnt realy chime in despite the fact that i have the ultimate low gas mileage vehicle.......my bike (work and gym commute). why not? because i realize that although the bike to work option is great for me its not for everyone. some live to far, think its too cold, too dangerous, have kids to pick up etc etc.

much like this debate......
if someone is not interested in forgoing refined/processed carbs, starches, flour etc to a large degree as a way of eating then martins plan is not for them. its not necc. wrong.....just not for them.
the opposite is true as well. you can achieve results by manipulating macros and cal levels (as many of us do) but some folks get results by concentrating solely on carb (insuline producing) intake so cal counting etc. is not for them. doesnt make it wrong....just not for them.

anyway, thats my two cents. i just hope zepp comes back.......remember him, the original poster.......this is his thread so he should really be the one leading it in whatever direction he would like it to go.
 
you can achieve results by manipulating macros and cal levels (as many of us do) but some folks get results by concentrating solely on carb (insuline producing) intake so cal counting etc. is not for them. doesnt make it wrong....just not for them.
I think it was Lyle who said that regardless of what diet you're on and/or what you cut out, it's still calories that are what makes a diet work or not. I stopped looking at high fat diets after the problems with the Atkins mess - but respecting both Martin and X, I now feel a need to look into the fat issue again.
BTW - I respect both these guys because they have their hearts in our sport and are amenable to correction and change. High &quot;scores&quot; for both. At least as good as getting one of Ed's sweepstake winner tickets in the mail.
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This is what I would do if I was you for a cut.

Pretty much leave your diet alone, except for the 2 cups of cottage cheese. Replace that with some fruit and make sure you go to be a little hungry each night. To control hunger, brush your teeth or chew some minty gum.

20-30min on the bike isn't long enough. If I do 30min hard I only burn 340kcal. I am 165lbs and 11%bf. You probably are not far from this.
You could burn a lot more calories if you do lighter cardio for longer. Try jogging for an hour or swimming, and biking for 1-2 hours.

On busy days do the short 30min cardio but do something everyday, not just 3 days a week.

By just taking it easy and enjoying the light cardio, you will be able to do it everyday and stick to it. Bring your gf with you and it could be very fun.

Have fun!
 
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