Frequency Vs Volume

C

chansen

New Member
Question on frequency. If volume weekly stays consistent, is hitting a body part 2x a week more efficient or 3x? For example, the following routines where volume is the same...will introduce minimal leg exercises into routine as legs are very advanced compared to upper body.

Push/pull 6x a week
Push M, W, F
Bench press 24 reps
Shoulder press 16-20 reps
Triceps 8-10 reps

Pull T, Th, Sat
Row 16-20 reps
Pull up 16-20 reps
Biceps 8-10 reps
Rear delt or shrugs 10 reps

Or push/pull 4x a week
Push M, Th
Bench press 30-36 reps
Shoulder press 24-30 reps
Triceps 12-16 reps

Pull T, Fri
Row 24-30 reps
Pull up 24-30 reps
Biceps 12-16 reps
Rear delts or shrugs 15 reps

Volume is the same in both Routines, only difference is 2x a week frequency vs 3x.

Thoughts?
 
Good question with a million answers. For me, frequency is the key to growth. Typically 4 full body workouts per week when weights are light and 3 full body workouts when weights are heavier. Both using AM/PM or similar type splits. Give each a 6-12 week go and compare results.
 
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If training frequency is a particular interest you might want to look into the Bulgarian training methodology. I haven't read this yet but here's a free ebook about it http://www.strengtheory.com/the-bulgarian-method/

If you are just asking specific to your above program I think frequency wins for hypertrophy. If you need to build up endurance/work capacity then I think volume is more inline with your goals.
 
Just remember that the true Buglarian method is designed for athletes on steroids.


Frequency definitely wins. I personally find that work capacity is improved by higher frequency too. Volume is a threshold you need to hit. Once you've done that, anything above and beyond that isn't addressing a particular weakness/area of improvement will just be limiting your recovery (IMO).
 
Jester said:
Frequency definitely wins. I personally find that work capacity is improved by higher frequency too. Volume is a threshold you need to hit. Once you've done that, anything above and beyond that isn't addressing a particular weakness/area of improvement will just be limiting your recovery (IMO).
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I can never seem to get the minimum volume correct when doing full body workouts, always seem to overdo it and then have to reduce volume. Where do we think minimum volume is set based on full body training 6 days per week (M/W/F - Squats, Flat Bench, Pendlays - T/T/S - Deads, Overhead Press, Neutral Grip Chins)
 
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Jester said:
Frequency definitely wins. I personally find that work capacity is improved by higher frequency too. Volume is a threshold you need to hit. Once you've done that, anything above and beyond that isn't addressing a particular weakness/area of improvement will just be limiting your recovery (IMO).
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As good and concise a definition of volume as I have ever heard. Now if we could just determine when that threshold is reached we could take all the guesswork out of BB.
 
Jester said:
Volume is a threshold you need to hit. Once you've done that, anything above and beyond that isn't addressing a particular weakness/area of improvement will just be limiting your recovery (IMO).
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Wrong - excess volume builds myonuclei and resets plateaus.
 
gregoryflinksi said:
Wrong - excess volume builds myonuclei and resets plateaus.
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No, accoording to Jester's definition, with which I agree, you have merely not met your threshold yet. It refers to the minimum amount of work necessary to achieve maximum results. In this context, minimum volume is also equal to the maximum volume which is the point at which additional work will produce no significant incremental results.

You can use a different definition of threshold and adapt your statement to it but not the definition used herein.
 
It's true that only a certain amount of microtrauma is needed per session to stimulate optimal growth. This would be your threshold where going beyond leads to counterproductive damage. However, there is much to be gained from what would be considered excessive volume. Science tells us hypertrophy is limited by the number of myonuclei per muscle cell. When a cell reaches the maximum size its group of myonuclei can support, growth will plateau. HST tells us to SD, i.e. quit for around 9 days. That time would be better spent recruiting more myonuclei from satellite cells with light weight very high rep work, i.e. as many reps as possible in 5 minutes, maximum pump and lactic acid build up - something Jester would consider excessive. It can't be qualified with incremental results (neither can SD) as the changes in muscle cell composition are microscopic. After a period of this one can return to their training program with additional myonuclei supporting a much greater hypertrophic potential. During normal training with moderate to heavy weights and sensible rep ranges, thresholds indeed apply.
 
gregoryflinksi said:
Wrong - excess volume builds myonuclei and resets plateaus.
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Prove it?

If you want to progress, increase your load first. Volume will take care of itself. When you stall, add in the correct exercise that addresses your weakness. Rinse and repeat.



The biggest mistake anyone can make is training for bodyparts IMO. If you train for exercises, you will progress further and faster. It sounds backwards, but if you train for body parts who will evitably be trending towards the failed 'bro split' mentality of the 80's, 90's and early 00's. Once you identify a weakness, you address the relevant body part. i.e. trouble leaning fwd during a squat; quad and abs not doing their bit. Bar straying during a deadlift? Lats need some more attention. And so on.

The alternative is to do coverage for each part/area/group, but your only barometer for progress becomes a mirror and measuring tape. The latter is great, the former is pretty useless for psychological reasons.
 
gregoryflinksi said:
It's true that only a certain amount of microtrauma is needed per session to stimulate optimal growth. This would be your threshold where going beyond leads to counterproductive damage. However, there is much to be gained from what would be considered excessive volume. Science tells us hypertrophy is limited by the number of myonuclei per muscle cell. When a cell reaches the maximum size its group of myonuclei can support, growth will plateau. HST tells us to SD, i.e. quit for around 9 days. That time would be better spent recruiting more myonuclei from satellite cells with light weight very high rep work, i.e. as many reps as possible in 5 minutes, maximum pump and lactic acid build up - something Jester would consider excessive. It can't be qualified with incremental results (neither can SD) as the changes in muscle cell composition are microscopic. After a period of this one can return to their training program with additional myonuclei supporting a much greater hypertrophic potential. During normal training with moderate to heavy weights and sensible rep ranges, thresholds indeed apply.
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If you could please show the science linking the permanent (assuming exercise ongoing etc.) increase in myonuclei and extra volume, this would settle the discussion greatly.
 
Considering that a 9 day SD actually DOES have science indicating that satellite cells increase after that time off, seems that would be better than just using stupidly high volume. Funny how newbies who haven't milked all their beginner gains always think that somehow the logic that applies to people who haven't built any significant muscle yet somehow applies to people who actually have lifted for more than a couple months.
 
Totentanz said:
Considering that a 9 day SD actually DOES have science indicating that satellite cells increase after that time off, seems that would be better than just using stupidly high volume. Funny how newbies who haven't milked all their beginner gains always think that somehow the logic that applies to people who haven't built any significant muscle yet somehow applies to people who actually have lifted for more than a couple months.
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We should probably replace that word "Funny" with "Typical" ... ? ;)
 
Gregory, actually what you are saying is something that I believe in...that is, using very high reps as part of your training. I do it every few cycles to cover all types of growth. However, I also incorporate SD which has been proven to be beneficial scientifically. And I also know that you can get very big without ever taking an SD. However, that is not, IMO, optimal training for results.
 
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