How many bulk cycles before cutting?

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My plan was to bulk for 3 years - roughly 15 HST cycles including SD. However, after 3 cycles I am now around 205lbs from around 175lbs. My waist has gone from 32" to 34" so I'm not too happy about that but I do realise that if I expect to gain lean mass I have to accept fat gain too.

If I assume I can gain 5lbs a cycle for the remaining 12 cycles that would take me to 265lbs or almost 19 stone! That's crazy and obviously highly unlikely unless I get as fat as a pig! So, what's my best bet? Should I get to a certain 'highish' bodyfat % and then cut until I get down to a certain 'lowish' bodyfat % or do, say, 5 bulk cycles and then 5 cutting cycles?

I have a blurry four pack right now which is acceptable considering the strength gains I have made. But, how much fat should I tolerate if I eventually want to cut it back to around 10%? Would it be ok to bulk for three years if I decided I could deal with the fat or would that be stupid? I really want to be able to squat with at least 400lbs for 5s by the time three years comes around and I don't want to stop my progress just to save putting on a few pounds of fat. I am working towards squatting with 315lb this cycle so I have a way to go.

So many questions! Sorry about that but I know you guys have a collective experience second to none. TIA
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I wouldn't go over 15% bodyfat before planning a cutter. If you just have a blurry fourpack, you're probably around 12% or so... or at least that's how my abs look at 12%. Some guys don't get a four pack, even a blurry one until they are under 10%, so you'll have to judge that for yourself... but I'd say you could run at least two more bulking cycles before you have to worry too much about cutting. And even then, you could just run a cutter or two to get your bodyfat back under control and get back to the bulking. Beware the rebound though. You'll probably want to include some time at maintenance before and after you cut.
 
you have some great long range goals. you dont mention any shorter term ones though. 3yrs and 12-15 cycles is a loooong time. i dont think you have to stay with the exact same bulk plan for the whole time. like totz said do a couple more bulk cycles as your used to and watch your strength and size go up. do a cut to drop some of the fat (but keep your diet tight enough to preserve as much muscle as possible) but nothing too long. when you begin you next bulk just try and do it "better".

what do i mean by this. i dont know how "good" your diet is but you obviously know what to eat to gain. thats most of the battle. for me once i got that right i moved on to getting more of the low gi carbs and more animal pro. in my diet etc. im currently working on trying a smaller cal surplus (4-500+ as opposed to the old 6-800+) and a variety of light cadio. as you can see im talking about refining and updating your approach as you go along. hst is great for putting on muscle and a standard excess cal bulk plan is fine for the first couple cycles but i feel youve got to continue to refine both your w/o and your diet as you go along. i dont think you have to be fat to be big and strong and trying a few differant approaches to get there will help tune you in to how best to get there.

also as you get closer to your lifting goals you may want to consider a more strength oriented w/o prog. some others can guide you better than i when it comes to this but i feel i would help to mix up the w/o every now and again as well.

good luck
 
Thanks guys. Very helpful.

Until now I have been keeping my calories above maintenance on training and non-training days by anywhere from around 500-800 cals. I'm eating mainly clean foods but i do have 2 or 3 fried eggs (over-easy) for brekky. I think I will try to be a little more accurate with calorie intake for future bulk cycles and perhaps keep calories at +500 on training days and around +300 on non-training days.

I like to do a fair amount of cycling in the summer and autumn so think I'll do a few cutting cycles then and see how I get on. I just have to be careful that I don't lose weight too fast and throw away half my lean gains.
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500/300 would probably work better for a bulk. Personally, I love seeing the weigth stack on at an insane rate, so I go with a huge amount of calories but it's not the best for the waist line.

If you cut while cycling, you'll probably want to stay at maintenance or just very slightly below. That will likely burn up a ton of calories.
 
<div>
(Totentanz @ Apr. 18 2006,20:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">500/300 would probably work better for a bulk.  Personally, I love seeing the weigth stack on at an insane rate, so I go with a huge amount of calories but it's not the best for the waist line.

If you cut while cycling, you'll probably want to stay at maintenance or just very slightly below.  That will likely burn up a ton of calories.</div>
totz is right about staying near maint. cals if your doing a lot of cycling this summer. its better to be in cal deficit thru activity than diet.

i guess im surprised your having as much trouble with the fat gain. 2-3 fried eggs at your wgt is no big deal and a pretty clean diet + fair amount of cycling + the strength gains your seen would seem to lead to mostly lbm gain. it does look like the 500-800+ is a bit much.

1 word of caution. at 3-500+ cals your wgt and size gains will probably slow and psychologically it can be tough. you dont feel your maximizing your potential gains b/c your trying to limit fat gain. im in the same boat at present and i liked to say it will all work out and what you put on will be mostly muscle but until im finished the next few cycles its all theory.
 
Points taken! Thanks again.

Yup, the scales readings are not increasing as they have been but my strength is still going up nicely which will be my guage along with how I feel during my w/os. If I start to feel a bit more drained than usual I will add some more calories the following training day. I think I really ought to get hold of some more accurate scales too.

I am not cycling again as yet (the weather in the UK is still @%$*!) so I'm still bulking. When cycling gets underway in a month or so, I will reduce calories slightly each week until I reach a point where I am not gaining. Then I'll stick at that level for a while and up the cycling on non-training days if I am able to get the time.
 
congratulatons on being one of the very few people that acknowledge that they actually need to eat alot for a long period of time in order to get the LONG TERM gains you are after!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I really want to be able to squat with at least 400lbs for 5s by the time three years comes around and I don't want to stop my progress just to save putting on a few pounds of fat</div>

It seems to me that you have answered your own question. You have a very clearly defined goal. You are worried about getting fat, but you will also be really gutted if you dont hit your 400 in 3years time. Cut calories if need be/increase daily activity, but dont do this to the expense of loosing out on your lifting progress.

I was in a similar mindset once. Then someone I know very well said to me, 'if you dont even deadlift 8 plates youve got no business cutting...you can cut anytime in the future. so why waste the time now?'

Goodluck with your goals whatever you decide to do!
 
Ya know Stevie, I have been thinking this through again and your post has tipped the scales!

I reckon that cutting will have to wait unless I really feel the fat is getting too much. I am enjoying getting stronger (and bigger) so why the heck should I slow things down unnecessarily? I am not fat compared with a large percentage of the population. Yes I'd like to be leaner one day but I want to squat with 8 plates first! It has to be done. As your friend pointed out, &quot;you can cut anytime in the future!&quot;

In fact I'm going to go easy on the cycling too as I don't want it to burn up too many calories. I'll do it for enjoyment's sake rather than to trim down.

Thanks. I can now sleep easy and start saving for more new clothes.
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lol
boy youve got it bad! one post from stevie and your ready to go, even talking about cutting back the cycling to get there. its obvious that getting 4 on squat and deadl. is what your truly passionate about so go for it and dont worry so much about the fat.

yet another word of caution (ive spend a lot of time doing things wrong)
i still dont think you have to be fat to be strong.(with blurry abs your nowhere near yet) ive gotten to @ the wgts you want to lift and it took me a lot longer than 3 yrs while packing a lot of food away. i was bigger and stronger but at a high bf% that didnt look got on my frame. long story short... ive dropped 30lbs over the winter (mostly fat) while continuing to lift heavy. my compound maxs are down a little (5-10%) but now im pulling 380 dl at 185lbs instead of 405 at 215. those 30lbs werent really giving me much.

anyway, sorry for the long post. you sound fired up. hit it hard and eat like crazy. just dont do it for too long like i did.

good luck
 
Thanks Bluejacket. I really appreciate comments from folks who have been there, done that and have a wardrobe full of t-shirts!
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You are right, I've got it baaad! The thing is, if I don't try I'll never know. It's a personal challenge. It may well take me a while longer than three years to attain my ultimate goal, but I figured that three years was a reasonably long enogh time to give it a shot. My deadlift was 355lbs for 5s after last cycle (my second) and I am hoping to push it up a bit from that this time around (three weeks to go!). I will then be able to guage a little better how much my progress is slowing, as it surely must.

I now feel I was perhaps a little over worried about adding fat at the start of this thread - mainly because I have always tried so hard to avoid doing so. 20 years ago, when I trained for a few years at college, I was lead to believe that it was possible to make good lean gains without adding any fat. I got nowhere fast, became disillusioned and, what with one thing and another, stopped training. The fact was, I wasn't eating anywhere near enough calories to keep on progressing. Fast forward 20 years and after six months of HST, a decent diet, and a vastly improved understanding of the 'science' behind all this, I am now beating my PBs from that time. So now I want to see how far I can go before my age really starts to get in the way (41 this year, eek!). So far my joints are holding out fine.

Another thing that is a little weird is feeling heavy! If I run anywhere I am now very aware of my bodyweight! So I totally understand your desire to drop some pounds (a big 'well done', by the way. 30lbs in one winter!). I'm sure I will want to do the same once I've given this plan my best shot.

Thanks again!
 
Just a question on this

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do realise that if I expect to gain lean mass I have to accept fat gain too</div>

Why is this the case? Surely putting on fat is because your eating more calories than your body is utilizing, wouldnt it be beneficial to figure out the right amount of calories your body demands to grow after whatever you personally put it through?

Id think even when bulking fat gain should still be kept to a minimum...by checking your bf% every few weeks and seeing if thats going up to much in relation to your weight. I mean surely fat is simply energy you've eaten which your body has no need for which is stored for later use, whats the point of those extra calories if you dont need them?

I get that bulking is about overeating &amp; everyones desperate to make sure they're taking in the optimal amount their body demands to grow...but wouldnt it be more efficient to work out a more accurate number and minimize fat gain by only eating roughly what your body needs and not much more?

Im just saying this because i keep reading people saying that putting on fat is just a part of bulking, unless theres some physiological benefits to putting on fat in relation to hypertrophy...i dont see why it needs to be?
 
People who struggle to eliminate fat gain while bulking traditionally the ones who can never, ever reach 200 lbs and always stay small.

You realize it is VERY difficult to figure out the exact amount you need to build muscle without gaining fat, right? Add on to that the fact that this value will be constantly changing as you grow larger, then you get down to the point where you have to refigure your calorie requirement every six hours to make sure you gain no fat and only muscle. It's not very probable.
 
Yeh I dont think theres a physiological benefit its just that it would be very impractical and would probably take calorie counting to a new level. Although with some effort, perhaps it would allow you to gain large quantities of muscle with minimal fat gain. I think your gains would slower too at JUST above maintanence calories.
 
lol from your posts i would say you know what you are doing .....and only yourself can tell you if your happy to carry some extra fat..you say you are eating 500 to 800 cals over maintanance..on your non training days that would be something like..1200 to 1500 over so maybe cut back on them days..varying the amounts like that can save some weight gains.
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Razien: I think Tot and Style are on the money. I'm sure if I had the time I could figure out calorie requirements better and minimise any fat gain. But, thanks to the advice I've received, I've decided that it's not a priority at this time.

What I have found is that when I am over maintenance by about 500 cals I have tons more energy during my w/os and for other activities. I am not gaining really fast (about a 1lb a week) but I am still adding a little fat along the way so I'm not too far out anyway.

Faz: I tend to naturally eat a bit less on non-training days but that's not very scientific! I will definitely watch it on those days which should help. Once I reach my lifting goals I will attempt a bit of cutting and be back for advice from all you ripped up folks! I reckon if I avoid any nasty injuries I should be in the best shape of my life by the time I reach 45.
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I'm starting to lean toward the idea of bulking up to higher bodyfat percentages than the 15% limit I've been working with for so long. I'm still going to cut this season, just because I hate abandoning goals, but I don't see the harm in bulking up to 20% before cutting down. How fat do you have to get before your body stops stuffing your existing fat cells with the excess calories and starts forming new ones? I would think it's pretty high.

I have a friend who is around 265 lbs, he's got quite a bit of fat to lose. But you can tell just by looking at him that he obviously has a lot of lean mass under all that fat. If he had enough willpower and dedication to actually cut, that guy would lose amazing at 8% or so. Kinda makes me want to get up that high. An added benefit is that it seems to guarantee great calves.
 
Lol totenatanz. I totally hear you with the monster bulking, but getting fat like a fat person? Deliberately! Great calves or not.......
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There is a big difference between getting fat like a fat person, and eating to achive your goals.

No one here is talking about completetly stuffing their bellies full with 10,000 cals a day while not doing any training.

The idea is a 'controlled bulk', where you accept some fat gain WITH your lean or strength gains. There is room for adjustment while doing this. If your rate of fat gain is excessive, you can eat a bit less to slow it down to a level that you feel is acceptable. How fat you are willing to let yourself become in pursuit of your goals is an entirely personal preference. Whatever floats you boat man....However, be warned that if you decide to maintain a lean look all the time, you have no right to complain that you havent acheived your other goals.
 
hmm yeah i can see what you guys are saying, i was probably looking at it to simplistically. Simply changing from 15s to 10's etc would change energy expenditure from workout to workout even let alone the differences from day to day activity...so if you were to keep calories constant you'd have to overestimate it to make sure you were getting all the gains possible...which would lead to putting on fat when you didnt demand that amount of calories on other days.
It would be pretty impossible to find out your exact caloric requirements at all times.
 
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