How to get 30-60 reps with my planned cycle?

TangoDown

TangoDown

Member
I planned out my cycle, which is very minimalist considering I'm still an intermediate lifter. I've got one compound exercise per body part with the exception of sumo deadlift and squat. Problem is, I read this thread: http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showth...ld-re-write-hst-in-2014-what-would-he-change/

...and Bryan's recommendations in it call for 30 reps for upper body and 60 reps for lower body, per body part, per session. So not to beat the dead horse with a debate on how to implement that in general, I'd like to know how I should fix up my upcoming cycle. I'm currently on SD, so I can't test my maxes for any other lifts, so I'm stuck with what I've got, and I don't have nearly enough reps for my lower body to initiate growth if I'm interpreting the 30-60 rule right, because I'm doing an A/B split with sumo deadlift/squat.

Here is my planned cycle: http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?42229-TangoDown-s-Vanilla-HST-Run

So what do you think, folks? My thoughts are, since I've only got one compound lift per body part, if I shoot for 2 sets of 15 during the 15s mesocycle and 3 sets of 10 during the 10s mesocycle WITH THE EXCEPTION of the 15RM and 10RM days (since those are only 2 days out of 4 weeks, it shouldn't make much of a difference if I have to drop the volume on those days). Then for 5s, I guess I'll shoot for 3 sets of 5 save for the 5RM day (if the volume needs to be dropped there). Don't know how I'd get another 15 reps there.

Does that work?

Now, for squat/sumo deadlift, it's a bit more fuzzy. Since, apparently, 60 reps are required, that's going to be impossible with the A/B split. So I was thinking...since I've got 10-15% intervals for squat and sumo dl, the submaximal days aren't going to be THAT heavy. So would it be possible to forgo the split and do both lifts on the same session 3 times per week? I could repeat the same loads two sessions in a row to compensate for the larger intervals, but then I'd end up maxing out squat and deadlift on the same day twice in a row.

Alternatively, I could go up by increments of 5% every session, but I'd think more fatigue would accumulate because the submaximal weights would be much closer to my maxes.

Both of these methods aren't perfect. So I don't really know what to do.

Any assistance would be appreciated.
 
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TangoDown said:
...and Bryan's recommendations in it call for 30 reps for upper body and 60 reps for lower body, per body part, per session.
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Yes, but not necessarily using your 5RM loads. Bryan actually seems to be hitting 30-60 reps with his 10+ RM loads.
Bryan Haycock said:
I'll do 3x10 of my primary exercise for a given muscle and then maybe at 2 more of an auxiliary exercise. For example, for chest I would do 3x10 of incline press and then add a couple sets of dips to finish things off. That puts me about 50 reps per muscle per workout. Keep in mind that I try to use big compounds as much as possible to limit the total number of exercises per workout.
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http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?19322-R-I-P-HST&p=105240#post105240 So you may want to work up to 30-60 reps using lower than your 5RM loads. Say 3 sets of 5's (staying good 1-2 reps short of failure @RPE8), then 1 set of 10's (@RPE9), plus 1 set of 15's (@RPE10) to finish things off. That's a total of up to 40 reps, which can be efficient. There's some evidence that combining lower rep work with metabolically demanding higher rep work in the same workout can be more efficient than the heavier work alone.
 
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You have to keep in mind that the Wernbom paper used the 8-12 rep range to get those figures for volume. It is likely you will need less with higher loads and more with lighter loads.
 
That helps, but I'm still, at the least, 30 reps short throughout the 10s and 15s on lower body unless I squat and sumo deadlift 3 times per week.
 
Deadlifts need to be programmed differently. I would not try 30 reps or anything like that on those. I prefer to do deads as a pyramid up to a top set, and just program them entirely separate from the rest of the workout. They really don't fit neatly into one muscle group, or into just lower body day. Have you considered doing rack pulls instead or treating sumo deads as a back lift and doing it on upper body day?

The easiest way to get your reps up on lower body is to use two lifts for each muscle group. I.e. do squats plus leg exts, rdl or sldl plus leg curl, then two types of calf raises if you plan to hit calves at all. Otherwise forget the calves. I would cluster or whatever to hit rep targets.
 
I'm currently on SD so I don't have the rep maxes tested for any other lifts as I've been cutting for the past 4 months and haven't done a regular HST cycle in a long time. That's why I can't add any other lifts per muscle group.

Sumo DL and Squat are the two lifts I've got tested that are "lower body." Nor do I have an upper body "day" planned. What I have right now is a vanilla HST set up without clustering or myo reps. Squats and Sumo DL are on an A/B split. Reason being, I just want to put some size on in the next 8ish months so it'll make strength training easier, so calves aren't really a priority (though I've always had defined calfs. Thanks genetics lol). So with those two lifts, I fear I don't have enough volume for the lower body, and that's the conundrum I face.
 
In that case, I would just not worry about getting that many reps for lower body... We don't know that 60 reps is required for lower body, we just know that it is probably closer to optimal. I'm sure 30 would be plenty. I still wouldn't do deads with higher volume though regardless of what you do.
 
So since I've got that split going on, how should I handle them within the vanilla program if they end up being my sole movement involving the lower body every other session? 1x15, 1-2x10, 2x5? Doesn't seem like enough considering the lack of any other leg movement that day. Should I squat 3 times per week and throw a set of sumo DL in every other workout, following the HST rep range (1x15, 1x10, 1x5)? Or should I sumo DL and squat 3 times per week, both with decreased volume (1x15, 1-2x10, 2x5)?

Those are the only feasible work-arounds I can think of without modifying my HST cycle so it's not a vanilla one anymore.
 
You don't need 60 reps, but it might be optimal. I would do 2x15, 3x10 and 4x5 for squats, then finish your legs with some leg curls and leg extensions, for 2x15, 3x10, 4x5.
You dont have to test your maxes for these, just start conservatively and progress slowly.
Or just do squats, but you'll probably see more thigh growth if you add in some other leg stuff after.
 
I would just to squats and squat variants (box, single leg, high bar and low bar) rather than bothering with leg extensions. A few sets of Good Mornings or Leg Curls for hamstrings is fine, but not really that necessary unless it's a glaring weakness. 60 reps per muscle group per session is completely insane IMO.
 
I really want to stick with just squat and sumo deadlift for now. Not particularly interested in replacing the sumo deadlift with isolation movements that I'm unfamiliar with. I'd just like to know how to program them both into a vanilla HST protocol, considering they're my only two lifts that are tested and utilize legs.

So what should I be doing? Squatting and Sumo DLing 3 times per week with reduced volume (1x15, 2x10, 2x5 for both lifts, probably), squatting 3 times per week and DLing every other day, limiting the DL to 1 set, or sticking with an A/B split (which would mean 2x15 and 3x10 for deadlift, which, according to Totz, is too much volume)? Or is there another method to the madness?
 
You get to choose between frequency, load and volume. Pick two, you can't have all three unless you're about to go Captain America-origins on the world. Personally, I take the first two and just hit the minimum volume per session/bout required. If you're doing vanilla HST style, squat each session and do sumo on the first and third sessions.
 
That works. If I understand you correctly by picking minimum volume, then squat volume would be tapered on squat/dl days? So squat only day, 2x15, 2-3x10, 2-3x5, and on squat/sumo DL day, squat would be 1x15, 1-2x10, and 1-2x5. Sumo DL would and should probably be 1x15, 1x10, and 1-2x5. So legs would get 20-40 reps total depending on the load.

I assume squat's % of whatever rep max should be roughly the same of whatever sumo DL's would be that day? For example, if I'm doing 5s, I should fix it so on the first sub-maximal day when I'm both squatting and DLing, squat weight and DL weight should both be around 70-75% of their respective 5 rep maxes. Same thing on day 3, albeit with a higher %. Both %s should be about the same.

Gonna have retool my intervals for both lifts.

And much thanks, AA.
 
Use normal/regular HST increments if you're running the regular program.I would have squat volume the same on all days, with the middle session a 'recoup' between sessions one and three.2x12, 3x8, 3x5 - probably what I would do.
 
I don't know my 12 and 8 rep maxes so I think I'm forced to stick with 15, 10, and 5 unless I estimate.

If I kept squat volume the same on squat/deadlift day, then deadlift would probably need lower volume to compensate Say 1x15, 1x10, and 1-2x5.

I have increments set at about 5% for squat and 10% for deadlift (rounded up or down 5lb).

By recoup, do you mean that that middle day would be squat only, and besides that, load would still increment upward at the same rate? So with that, deadlift and squat max out on two separate days. That's gonna mean larger intervals for deadlift since I have them both maxing out on the same day right now, but I guess that's fine.

Cycle starts tomorrow. Been having some nasty insomnia the past couple of days. Hopefully I can mitigate that. Still excited to get back into the swing of things and actually make gains for a change lol.
 
Just increment squats normally, and don't have their set up affected by deads. Do deads on the first and third sessions. Doing them for all three might be a stretch during the 5s.
 
Nah, I was gonna have deads affected by squats - not vise versa.

So the plan is tomorrow to do 2x15 of squat and 1-2x15 of deadlift, both at about 75% of their respective 15RMs.

Standby for weaksauce (though these # are after a 30lb cut)

Squat

130 140 150 160 170 180

145 155 165 175 185 195

170 180 190 200 210 220


Deadlift

170 200 230

180 215 250

210 240 270
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I think I can handle deads every other session seeing as my recovery threshold is still relatively high since I'm young, so I'm gonna stick with session 1, 3, and 5, and see how I feel, because if I don't deadlift on session 5, that's 8-9 days without deadlifting and I've always felt a lot weaker at a movement after not doing it for a week or so.

I can always reduce to 2 later in the cycle or I can bollocks up this cycle and cry in a corner.
 
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Totentanz said:
You have to keep in mind that the Wernbom paper used the 8-12 rep range to get those figures for volume. It is likely you will need less with higher loads and more with lighter loads.
Click to expand...

Based on my experience, if you are really flogging it out in the 5's... It is very difficult to reach the 30 rep range. Lifting heavy really takes it out of you and I have attempted to reach the 30 rep range each workout. For me, I feel that my body starts to burn out... So what Totentanz says makes sense. I feel that when you do the 5's, it is probably ok to keep to 3 sets of 5 (when the weights get heavy enough). Just my opinion...
 
Frankly, 15 reps is more than you need at your actual 5RM, IMO. At least for anyone not approaching advanced.
 
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