HST and Eat/Stop/Eat
- Thread starter Mule86
- Start date
Does glucogeogenesis burn muscle? I thought ketosis was muscle sparing because glucogeogenesis will feed primarily from fatty acids....
I'm puzzled now
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Like I said - the leaner you are, the less fat you have to supply energy and ketones to cover basal needs, and labile and contractile amino acids become a more attractive target to supply energy. Another issue is glucose managing and insulin kinetics, I don’t have the study references at hand and too lazy to go look for them, but longer fasts mess with the way your body handles calories (carbs in particular). This is why many experience a "crash" after their first meal breaking the fast, they get sleepy and lethargic and turn on the parasympathetic branch of the ANS - which normally doesn’t happen with shorter fasts and smaller protein+fat meals. The latter imitating a lot of the fasting effects we are after (increased fat burning, autophagy) while avoiding most of the side-effects of longer fasts (muscle loss, glucose handling).
Last edited:
I appreciate the information. I will admit that I am new to fasting of any kind. I just began this fast a few weeks back. So far I've liked the results that I have gotten out of the 24 hour fast two days a week. My goal was to cut weight/body fat and I feel like I have accomplished that goal so far. I don't feel like I am losing any strength as I have still been progressively overloading my HST routine and completing my reps/sets.
I was under the impression that it was iperative to incorporate three days of weight training when you are fasting at all, be it 16 or 24 hour fasts. This would encourage your body to not ''burn muscle'' when you are in your fasting state because the body would realize that it would need to keep the muscle around for those workouts. I've been going by that theory and lifting heavier to try to combat any possiblity of muscle loss. Really my ultimate goal is to keep the muscle I have and lose body fat % to ''appear'' more muscular when in fact I haven't really built any new mucsle, just lost some fat %.
I haven't really delved into the science of it, other than reading up on E/S/E and Intermittent Fasting. Again, everything I've read I thought said that they were both good diets and would accomplish almost the exact same thing and choosing one would be more of a lifestyle fit than anything. I like the flexibility of the 24 hour fast more than the IF schedule. Right now it's working for me so I'll stick with it at least until the end of my current HST cycle (5 weeks.)
I was under the impression that it was iperative to incorporate three days of weight training when you are fasting at all, be it 16 or 24 hour fasts. This would encourage your body to not ''burn muscle'' when you are in your fasting state because the body would realize that it would need to keep the muscle around for those workouts. I've been going by that theory and lifting heavier to try to combat any possiblity of muscle loss. Really my ultimate goal is to keep the muscle I have and lose body fat % to ''appear'' more muscular when in fact I haven't really built any new mucsle, just lost some fat %.
I haven't really delved into the science of it, other than reading up on E/S/E and Intermittent Fasting. Again, everything I've read I thought said that they were both good diets and would accomplish almost the exact same thing and choosing one would be more of a lifestyle fit than anything. I like the flexibility of the 24 hour fast more than the IF schedule. Right now it's working for me so I'll stick with it at least until the end of my current HST cycle (5 weeks.)
I have been on HST for two years and lifting heavily for over 10. I played college football and increasted my weight/mass considerably when I played. I've now got it back down to where I want it. I can tell/feel if and when I am losing mass or strength.
From a Martin Berkhan article:
http://fitnessblackbook.com/diet-tips/martin-berkhan-scorch-through-your-fat-loss-plateau/
"Your metabolism doesn’t scavenge amino acids from your muscles after an overnight fast. Fatty acid metabolism is highly up-regulated, but muscle catabolism doesn’t occur in short-term fasting for up to 24 hours. If you’re still paranoid about this (I am), make sure to eat some slowly absorbed protein before bed, such as cottage cheese, egg white protein or meat with veggies (the extra fiber will slow absorption as meat is generally considered a “fast” protein). Another thing to keep in mind is the very slow absorption rate of whole food proteins. We’re talking a few grams per hour, which means that a mixed meal with 40-50 grams of protein will maintain a steady level of amino acids in your bloodstream well through the night and into the next day. The belief that a few hours without food will cause muscle catabolism is absurd."
Looks to me that Martin doesn't believe you will lose muscle in a 24 hour fast.
http://fitnessblackbook.com/diet-tips/martin-berkhan-scorch-through-your-fat-loss-plateau/
"Your metabolism doesn’t scavenge amino acids from your muscles after an overnight fast. Fatty acid metabolism is highly up-regulated, but muscle catabolism doesn’t occur in short-term fasting for up to 24 hours. If you’re still paranoid about this (I am), make sure to eat some slowly absorbed protein before bed, such as cottage cheese, egg white protein or meat with veggies (the extra fiber will slow absorption as meat is generally considered a “fast” protein). Another thing to keep in mind is the very slow absorption rate of whole food proteins. We’re talking a few grams per hour, which means that a mixed meal with 40-50 grams of protein will maintain a steady level of amino acids in your bloodstream well through the night and into the next day. The belief that a few hours without food will cause muscle catabolism is absurd."
Looks to me that Martin doesn't believe you will lose muscle in a 24 hour fast.
Martin Berkhan is the author and developer of Lean Gains Intermittent Fasting, which is a 16/8 fasting schedule that you claim is better than the E/S/E fasting program. He's far from some random guy on the internet.
It is working for me, thanks.
If it’s working then that’s great and I’m very happy for you. I don’t see the point in asking for opinion or advice, though. I will say this - the people following fasting protocols just seem to have this "flat" and stringy look to them when they get very lean. That’s obviously impossible to avoid completely when trying to get very lean without any pharmaceutical enhancement, but just noticeably moreso than with non-fasting diets. I also base this on my own experiences with well into the thousand of clients throughout my 15+ years of coaching experience
so take it for what it’s worth YMMV.If that’s a look you find attractive, then it’s perfect, obviously. For a more flexible way of eating, for anti-aging purposes and/or for someone with a lot of fat to lose, a fasting approach is great, though.
Last edited:
If it’s working then that’s great and I’m very happy for you. I don’t see the point in asking for opinion or advice, though. I will say this - the people following fasting protocols just seem to have this "flat" and stringy look to them when they get very lean. That’s obviously impossible to avoid completely when trying to get very lean without any pharmaceutical enhancement, but just noticeably moreso than with non-fasting diets. I also base this on my own experiences with well into the thousand of clients throughout my 15+ years of coaching experience
If that’s a look you find attractive, then it’s perfect, obviously. For a more flexible way of eating, for anti-aging purposes and/or for someone with a lot of fat to lose, a fasting approach is great, though.
I'm not really trying to question your experience. I started this thread to be more of a journal of my experience with E/S/E. I wasn't starting it to look for validation that this is the superior way or only way to achieve my goals. I know that there are many options out there that work differently for people. So far this is working for me and I like the simplicity of it. I don't think I look deflated and I actually feel like I am increasing my strength while simultaneously losing some weight. I've weighed everywhere from 195 to 230 over the past 10 years. I've bulked and lifted extremely heavy and I've leaned out. Right now I'm looking at keeping my strength while cutting some body fat and gaining more definition. I have a pretty good feel on how my body feels after being lean/big/lean again.
20 hr fast - no effect on protein turnover:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/5/1244.full.pdf
Protein turnover not affected for up to 72 hrs of fasting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19508406
Catabolic genes not activated up until 40 hrs of fasting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16931880
Possible MOA in protein retention during fasting - growth hormone:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11147801
One last note - most liver glycogen depletion rates (which is a major concern when discussing fasting and muscle loss) are based on calculations but insofar as actual human studies, atleast one human experiment shows that you can go a pretty long time (much passed 24 hrs) without draining your glycogen stores and that there is a pretty neat recycling mechanism at work by which the cori cycle works to retain muscle but can't find the exact paper at the momement, anyway - here's the liver depletion rates in humans.
http://cds.ismrm.org/protected/09MProceedings/files/00208.pdf
http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/5/1244.full.pdf
Protein turnover not affected for up to 72 hrs of fasting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19508406
Catabolic genes not activated up until 40 hrs of fasting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16931880
Possible MOA in protein retention during fasting - growth hormone:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11147801
One last note - most liver glycogen depletion rates (which is a major concern when discussing fasting and muscle loss) are based on calculations but insofar as actual human studies, atleast one human experiment shows that you can go a pretty long time (much passed 24 hrs) without draining your glycogen stores and that there is a pretty neat recycling mechanism at work by which the cori cycle works to retain muscle but can't find the exact paper at the momement, anyway - here's the liver depletion rates in humans.
http://cds.ismrm.org/protected/09MProceedings/files/00208.pdf
I've been doing IF 16/8 for a week now and am on my last week of 5RM's whilst on a cut. I am absolutely amazed at what fasted lifting can acheive and definitely don't look as flat or deflated as I usually do on a cut. My strength has gone up and lost an extra 2lb at least this week. I don't feel hungry anymore and am struggling to believe this level of success can continue. Definitely a leangains convert!
As I'm cutting I'll be going straight back to 10's shortly mainting a calorie deficit of -10%/-30% and will re-assess my maxes along the way, however when I start the standard recomp of +20%/-20% would it be wise to have a strategic decondition and start back on 15's.
Would you still follow the carb cycling on the decondition? or just keep carbs low and eat at maintenance mainting the 8hr feeding window?
As I'm cutting I'll be going straight back to 10's shortly mainting a calorie deficit of -10%/-30% and will re-assess my maxes along the way, however when I start the standard recomp of +20%/-20% would it be wise to have a strategic decondition and start back on 15's.
Would you still follow the carb cycling on the decondition? or just keep carbs low and eat at maintenance mainting the 8hr feeding window?
Last edited:
Major Twang
New Member
I've used IF whilst cutting & think it's absolutely brilliant.
However, I can't get on with it for buking for precisely the reason you give above.
I'm 45 & currently weigh 180lb, but my maintenance figure is around 3,200cals. Even at a conservative 10% above maintenance, that's way too much food to cram down my neck in 8 hours.
Question about 16/8 IF. I plan to lift 3 times a week and maybe HIIT/cardio twice a week. Are you suppose to lift at the end of your fast before your first meal or eat a light one, lift then big meal?
Also, would it be more effective to cardio on empty stomach or same as lifting and eat a little first?
Height: 5'6.5"
Weight: 157lbs
BF%: around 18%
Also, would it be more effective to cardio on empty stomach or same as lifting and eat a little first?
Height: 5'6.5"
Weight: 157lbs
BF%: around 18%
Major Twang
New Member
Over on the Leangains site, Berkhan outlines several different ways in which the feeding window can be fitted around training. He covers pretty much every variant from training first thing in the morning & eating later to training later.
He doesn't think there is going to be much difference between the different approaches.
One thing that a lot of people miss about Leangains is that it's supposed to replace the obsession over meal timing with a more relaxed approach to eating that incorporates regular fasting.
The research that is coming out about Infermittent Fasting seems to be that the details don't really matter. The positive health benefits of fasting can be gained from pretty much any schedule - one fast day per week, two days of very low calories, 16/8 or whatever.
Berkhan champions 16/8, probably because it's a nice easy system & one that suits people who train regularly. The regularity of eating times allows your hunger to entrain to the pattern fairly quickly, making compliance much easier - unlike full day fasts which can be more difficult for athletes & can knock your training out of whack.
Last edited:
So I've been continuing on with the E/S/E diet and HST. Most weeks I will have at least one 24 hour fast. My weight will fluctuate between 203-207lbs weekly. I have been pretty happy with the program. I would love to hover around 199-201lbs and if I truely stuck to a strict diet I think I could do it. However, I enjoy eating out with family, having a few drinks here and there so I am happy with where I am at. I really do enjoy the simplicity of both E/S/E as well as HST. I'm coming up on three years of HST and do not see stopping any time soon. I am stronger than I have been since my football playing days. I am more muscular and defined than I have been in 10 years. I just had a health screening assessment for our insurance and everything came out very good. (8.8% BF which I thought was low. Figured I'd be around 12%).
One thing that I would like to pick back up is cardio. I've all but abandoned any type of cardio in the past six months. I used to do some light elliptical work on my non HST days but have slacked in this area. I think picking this back up would help me in getting under the 200lb mark. Really, the 200lb mark is more of a psychological thing than anything.
One thing that I would like to pick back up is cardio. I've all but abandoned any type of cardio in the past six months. I used to do some light elliptical work on my non HST days but have slacked in this area. I think picking this back up would help me in getting under the 200lb mark. Really, the 200lb mark is more of a psychological thing than anything.