HST principles contradicting HLM?

Good morning,

I am not new to Hypertrophy training but to HST-to know me please check this thread out:
http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?41480-Motivation-amp-Direction

Currently I am still on a HLM routine 2x the week and I think about if I should incorporate the HST principles in my HLM scheme or switch totally to HST.

Some points and thinkers I want to make:


  • Long linear "vs" short linear (undulated)
HST is a linear periodized programm. HLM or Wendler compresses the 6weeks in 3 sessions with bigger jumps between them before adding weight or reps the next rotation. ----> Is this approach favoured for intermediate athletes or does HST tweaks exists in this direction?


  • Problem of overreaching
Also Casey Butt suggests, that for stronger athletes after a heavy day,a lighter day is needed. They just can´t regenerate from 3x5 with 200kg so fast as they pushed 80kg 3x5. So to hold the stimulus up yOu still hit the gym but with a light session-be it higher reps or just a cutt off weight on this day.---------> So isn´t there the danger of running in overreaching during HST even when not hitting failure? Think of fitness fatigue here.
Also regarding HST, HLM shouldn´t work: You don´t do a SD before returning to the light day-but its still possible to improve each session.


  • Working in different Rep Ranges/PR Ranges:
Also clustering/Total Reps are a idea in HST.​
This will eliminate the factor "fatigue" as much as possible while focusing on "tension" stimulus.
ITs questionable how important fatigue is. See also Lyles article here about the "perfect" rep range
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/reps-per-set-for-optimal-growth.html

I like on the HLM set up i do, that it incorporates different rep ranges and 3 "main" stimuli:
2x15/1 min rest: much fatigue/metabolic stimulus-less tension stimulus.
3x8-10/2min rest: some fatigue-some tension stimulus
3x3-5/4 min rest: little fatigue-much tension stimulus

Nobody know if just the variation in load is the most important factor, or if the metabolic demands are helping your development in a certain degree.
--------------> so a new approach would be, to increase on one side the tension stimulus via weight (weight the most important factor) and on the other hand "fatigue" via higher reps, shorter rests,higher volume.

Some takes on my points would lead to a interesting discussion for us all I think,

So feel free to chime in.

TG
 
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No inputs?
Perhaps LOL or TOTENTANZ?
Its so sad that the forums with quality are always the forums which are less active.

On t-nation i would have got 10 posts already containing the words: Squat, sleep,eat and repat. Oh and don´t forget the gallon of milk:p
 
Long linear "vs" short linear (undulated)
HST is a linear periodized programm. HLM or Wendler compresses the 6weeks in 3 sessions with bigger jumps between them before adding weight or reps the next rotation. ----> Is this approach favoured for intermediate athletes or does HST tweaks exists in this direction?

Any program that progresses load over time is essentially in line with HST, throw in a deconditioning period for good measure. If you think about it, the basic cookie cutter routine leads to 'zig zagging' with weights which could be considered an undulation of the program in a way. The key point is progression over time, not ever single workout.

Problem of overreaching
Also Casey Butt suggests, that for stronger athletes after a heavy day,a lighter day is needed. They just can´t regenerate from 3x5 with 200kg so fast as they pushed 80kg 3x5. So to hold the stimulus up yOu still hit the gym but with a light session-be it higher reps or just a cutt off weight on this day.---------> So isn´t there the danger of running in overreaching during HST even when not hitting failure? Think of fitness fatigue here.
Also regarding HST, HLM shouldn´t work: You don´t do a SD before returning to the light day-but its still possible to improve each session.

I don't recall Bryan or anyone else writing or saying that HST principles are the proverbial it, and if you deviate then thou shall not build the musclez. It's a training routine guided by some basic principles, not a religious text. You don't have to SD if you're still making gains.

Working in different Rep Ranges/PR Ranges:Also clustering/Total Reps are a idea in HST.
This will eliminate the factor "fatigue" as much as possible while focusing on "tension" stimulus.
ITs questionable how important fatigue is. See also Lyles article here about the "perfect" rep range
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/reps-per-set-for-optimal-growth.html

Tension, progression of load, take a damn break every now and then. Any workout program that adheres generally to those principles is roughly speaking an HST routine. Vary the load all you want, it will eventually have to get heavier to keep the gains coming.
 
CDB,thank you for the fast reply.

2 more points your opinion would interest me:

1. Submaximal Weights: Do you see any advantage when working with submaximal weights to rep out on your last set as many reps as possible? (while avoiding failure) like 531 Wendler does?
Is there some benefit (like some peak tension) or is this just a ego thing in your eyes.

2.Pr´s: Would´n it be more productive and motivating in a Classic HST cycle, to extend the weeks in general as long as you see progress in having new Prs?
Lets say instead of switching to the 10s after the 15s cycle in week 3 you could try to break Prs in the 15s as long as possible. then when you stall and need more load to progress again you can move to the 10th.
 
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CDB,thank you for the fast reply.

2 more points your opinion would interest me:

1. Submaximal Weights: Do you see any advantage when working with submaximal weights to rep out on your last set as many reps as possible? (while avoiding failure) like 531 Wendler does?
Is there some benefit (like some peak tension) or is this just a ego thing in your eyes.

As long as you're recovering okay, go for it. Bryan has recommended as much in the past too, just don't do it all the time or to the point of over training.

Would´n it be more productive and motivating in a Classic HST cycle, to extend the weeks in general as long as you see progress in having new Prs?
Lets say instead of switching to the 10s after the 15s cycle in week 3 you could try to break Prs in the 15s as long as possible. then when you stall and need more load to progress again you can move to the 10th.

You can do that, it's similar to what you'd get with clustering.
 
As long as you're recovering okay, go for it. Bryan has recommended as much in the past too, just don't do it all the time or to the point of over training.

Interesting, why does he recommend this?



You can do that, it's similar to what you'd get with clustering.


True. It could look like:

2x15 till stall
3x10 till stall
6x5 till stall
10x3 till stall
30x1 till death

Although its questionable, if it is needed to cluster down that low:

1. It depends which load the trainee needs to elicit adaption. For some 6x5 might be too much,for some too less. I also thought this when looking at the vanilla HST routine. An early intermediate wouldn´t need to do excentrics yet.
I think clustering down so low, or working with certain kinds of heavy weights should be saved for those trainees whos tissue needs more stress to create bouts which fit in their currents abilities.

2. Volume related overtraining because of remaining the same volume through the cycle (Bompa&Haff, 2009).
Here is also a take of lyle to that:
"Some people, when the weights get heavy, don’t ever seem to be able to get all 5 sets of 5 no matter how long you keep them at the same weight. So they’ll get 5,5,5,5,3 one workout and 5,5,5,5,3 the next workout and no matter how long you wait, that last set never gets to 5 reps. They just can’t do it for whatever reason.

In that situation, the solution is to drop the fifth set and have them do warmups + 4 sets of 5 across. And as long as they get all 4 sets of 5, they go up in weight. And, usually, at some point they start doing something like 5,5,5,4 and then 5,5,5,4 at the next workout.
At which point you drop the 4th work set and move them to three sets of 5 across. And then that stalls and you go to 2 sets of 5 after warmups… I think you get the idea"
 
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Weren't the original first two sets of 5x5 warmups? It appears to me that Lyle thinks all 5 sets are done at the same load.

2.Pr´s: Would´n it be more productive and motivating in a Classic HST cycle, to extend the weeks in general as long as you see progress in having new Prs?

Well yeah, it would. But HST is a hypertrophy program where strength is the means and size is the end. In PR work, size is one of many means and strength is the end. If you want new PRs take any well regarded program off the shelf and use it: Wendler 5/3/1, Rippetoe's work, 5x5 variants, etc. I am of the thinking that you will hit new PRs every workout until your training age increases. Then you will hit PRs every week. Then every few weeks. This assumes that your training is strength oriented. It is entirely possibly for a bodybuilder to stay at a low training age strength-wise and therefore hit new PRs when he goes back to heavier loads.
 
Weren't the original first two sets of 5x5 warmups? It appears to me that Lyle thinks all 5 sets are done at the same load.



Well yeah, it would. But HST is a hypertrophy program where strength is the means and size is the end. In PR work, size is one of many means and strength is the end. If you want new PRs take any well regarded program off the shelf and use it: Wendler 5/3/1, Rippetoe's work, 5x5 variants, etc. I am of the thinking that you will hit new PRs every workout until your training age increases. Then you will hit PRs every week. Then every few weeks. This assumes that your training is strength oriented. It is entirely possibly for a bodybuilder to stay at a low training age strength-wise and therefore hit new PRs when he goes back to heavier loads.

Thank you for the reply. But I didn´t completely get what you mean.

Even when doing HST, you probably hit PRs at the end of each rep phase.
Perhaps die PR´s are "overwritten" or not that visible, because you also increase the weight, when you don´t reach a certain end of a rep range. You just increase and increase. So its more difficult to see PRs this way.

What I regard a bit problematic is recovery time on HST. Your assumption regarding strength increase (first every workout, then every week etc) is reflected on programming in some programms. Like Ripps SS, which is moved later to the Texas method (weekly Prs). This is also based on the assumption, that the more advanced you get, the greater the load need to be to disrupt homeostasis. But such a load cannot repeated more times the week.
So you include other lighter days to carry over the stimulus but not to overwhelm yourself.

This also applies to hypertrophy training, at least the idea of HLM which Casey Butts emphasizes that much.

Or do yo mean by your post, that programming for hypertrophy is a totally different game? But recovery is recovery and progression is progression.

I have not started my HST cycle, but I could imagine, that for the intermediate lifter, when running the HST template and the weights gets heavy and increased and increased and you never back of via a light day, that fatigue just overwhelmes yourself and you start overreaching.
 
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But such a load cannot repeated more times the week.
So you include other lighter days to carry over the stimulus but not to overwhelm yourself.

Yes, this is weekly periodization with intra-microcycle variations in volume-load. See Periodization 5th Ed. by Tudor Bompa.

This also applies to hypertrophy training, at least the idea of HLM which Casey Butts emphasizes that much.

Ok. Cool. I will check it out.

Or do yo mean by your post, that programming for hypertrophy is a totally different game?

I believe that strength programming and hypertrophy programming are possibly very different. Strength and hypertrophy programming have things in common, but they are distinctly different games.

But recovery is recovery and progression is progression.

Not so fast there. Less is known about recovery than nutrition or programming. Recovery can be psychological, CNS mediated, local, central, and/or metabolic. A hypertrophy program with 12RM loads might require more metabolic recovery than CNS recovery (I am speculating).

...that for the intermediate lifter, when running the HST template and the weights gets heavy and increased and increased and you never back of via a light day, that fatigue just overwhelmes yourself and you start overreaching.

If by intermediate lifter you mean a lifter who requires intra-microcycle variations to see new PRs, then I agree. HST doesn't seem to address the concerns of modern strength programming (Rippetoe, Bompa,...) for a lifter who can burn himself out in a week on 5's (presuming it happens).

-Q
 
Yes, this is weekly periodization with intra-microcycle variations in volume-load. See Periodization 5th Ed. by Tudor Bompa.

Correct. The book is in my collection too.;)


Ok. Cool. I will check it out.

Here is a link of HLM you might want to give a read:
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/interview-casey-butt-part-2.html


I believe that strength programming and hypertrophy programming are possibly very different. Strength and hypertrophy programming have things in common, but they are distinctly different games.

Could you elaborate that?Tension overload seems to be the main contributer in both.


Not so fast there. Less is known about recovery than nutrition or programming. Recovery can be psychological, CNS mediated, local, central, and/or metabolic. A hypertrophy program with 12RM loads might require more metabolic recovery than CNS recovery (I am speculating).

True. There is so much what could be considered to easily slip into programming madness.

Each programm has drawbacks. You just should minimize them in regard to your goal.

If by intermediate lifter you mean a lifter who requires intra-microcycle variations to see new PRs, then I agree. HST doesn't seem to address the concerns of modern strength programming (Rippetoe, Bompa,...) for a lifter who can burn himself out in a week on 5's (presuming it happens).-Q

Thats exactly what I meant. The only thing which diminish the fatigue (although not optimal in my eyes) is zig zagging in HST.
I think lot of trainees in the intermediate stage can take advantage from the intra microcycle variation and thats why certain programms work so well for these trainees.
Look at Bill Starr or the Texas Method. You have 5x5 and 1x5 workouts. Bill Starr even progress to 3x3 and 1x3.
ALso Wendlers 531 or Caseys HLM which can also be spelled out LMH is good. Or just simple Heavy light training in Bodybuilding. One day with heavy 5´s, the other day with pumpin 12´s.
What all these programms have in common, is that after a heavy load day, you reduce the load again for another build up.
This allows longer progression and elimination of fatigue.
 
Could you elaborate that?Tension overload seems to be the main contributer in both.

Tension is relevant for hypertrophy and SST. Do weightlifters rep out? Do weightlifters do drop sets or supersets? Do weightlifters go for the pump? The answer to all of these questions is "No, not usually." These are bodybuilding techniques used to increase hypertrophy. Do bodybuilders go for multiple singles with a max weight? What about speed work, the so called "Dynamic Method" of Verkoshansky and popularized my Louie Simmons? No, these are strength-specific practices. Lets look at lift selection: Weightlifters rarely do single joint lifts like incline curls, lateral raises, or leg extensions. But these are par for the course in a bodybuilders routine.

So hypertrophy differs in the loads used (maximal emphasis vs. submaximal emphasis), the lift selection (single joint for hypertrophic programs, assistance lifts for strength programs), and the loading paradigm or complex used (e.g. supersets vs. wave loading). In Peridiozation 5th Ed. Bompa delineates about nine factors for strength development. Its in the chapter on periodization for strength. Have a look at them: how many are important for size? Look at his loading paradigms: flat pyramid, skewed pyramid, wave load -- those are strength specific.

-Q
 
Right now my goal is strength and I am largely following SS. I have no reason to change because I am still getting lots of "newbie gains": I squat and pull twice a week and both lifts go up 10 lbs a session. I also do standing overhead presses and underhand chins, which I alternate with one arm dumbell rows. I am using this routine to build a base of strength and muscle density. My goal is to reach an intermediate strength level and then convert to a hypertrophy oriented program. The overarching reason for this is Tudor Bompa's writing that higher levels of hypertrophy occur with higher volume-loads. For example three sets of ten with 400lbs is, in his view, going to make for more hypertrophy then the same workout at, say, 315 lbs. Bompa's writing does contradict HST in that HST aims to recycle the same loads to produce ever increasing hypertrophy, whereas in the Bompaverse increasing hypertrophy requires increasing weight, volume, or both. I have seen other bodybuilding writers say that high weights aren't necessary for size, but I haven't had much luck in finding out how they do it.

-Q
 
Right now my goal is strength and I am largely following SS. I have no reason to change because I am still getting lots of "newbie gains": I squat and pull twice a week and both lifts go up 10 lbs a session. I also do standing overhead presses and underhand chins, which I alternate with one arm dumbell rows. I am using this routine to build a base of strength and muscle density. My goal is to reach an intermediate strength level and then convert to a hypertrophy oriented program. The overarching reason for this is Tudor Bompa's writing that higher levels of hypertrophy occur with higher volume-loads. For example three sets of ten with 400lbs is, in his view, going to make for more hypertrophy then the same workout at, say, 315 lbs. Bompa's writing does contradict HST in that HST aims to recycle the same loads to produce ever increasing hypertrophy, whereas in the Bompaverse increasing hypertrophy requires increasing weight, volume, or both. I have seen other bodybuilding writers say that high weights aren't necessary for size, but I haven't had much luck in finding out how they do it.

-Q

Hey Q,

Well it sounds logical, that more load stimulates more hypertrophy (more microtrauma,more tension...)
Thats why I think its wise to include lower reps, even for Bodybuilders, to constantly spur progression on strength too which translates in hypertrophy gains when using higher rep ranges later.
This can be a arranged as wished. Be it accumulation and intensification phases,linear periodization,Heavy Light training or simply including some lower rep stuff in your training.

It depends what the authors meant with "high weights". A certain threshold of %RM is required to growth with the mainstay in the 70-85% range. This will lead to the classic 6-15 rep range for hypertrophy.
This leads to the quote: "To get big, get stronger in the medium rep range for growth"
So BB does get stronger, only in a other range than PLS.
Thats why a PL can outlift a BB in his 1RPM but the could BB outlift the PL in his 10RPM.
Specific adaption to imposed demands.

Also BB focus on fatigue which is still unclear how much it contributes to hypertrophy.

Well Bompa ist not totally disagreeing with HST.
Hst states, that for further growth, either the threshold needs to drop (SD) or the load/volume needs to increase.
Either way the load gets more demanding.

Also if applied properly, HST does suggest to increase the load the next cylce. So you test your 10/15/5 rpm after your cycle. SD and then build up again.

'The sense of SD as I had understand is to make the body responsive for lighter loads again. neverthless these loads are a bit heavier than the last cycle.

Also in HST that vanilla template doesn´t go forever. You also need to adjust the intensity you train with (Perhaps after some time do 10/8/3 and drop sets for fastigue not 15/10/5) as volume.
This is what Bryan calls minum load and minimum volume. And this changes overtime and is also depending on the trainee.
 
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