Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Spencer, Oct 18, 2002.

  1. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

    This is one very interesting point Bryan state before the nutrition forum was reset.

    He says that hypertrophy is only dependent on a mechanical stimulus and incoming amino acids, not on insulin, carbs or fats.

    To me, protein are the materials, carbs do the building while fats ensure optimal hormone levels. I put more emphasis on getting enough carbs in my meals because of the thinking, " carbs release insulin which will shuttle amino acids to the muscle and without the "delivery", amino acids are useless even in giant amounts."

    I may have found the reason why i have not been growing optimally. This comment by Bryan gets me very excited.

    Can we conclude that the top priority of our diet is to get at least 1g of protein/lb of bodyweight or even higher for better results?

    Wouldnt there be a line crossed when even high amounts of protein cannot ensure hypertrophy because of drastic low caloric intake?

    I believe NightOp brought this point up. Suppose a 220lbs person maintenance is at 3000 calories. He gets AT LEAST 220g of protein but is eating only 2000 calories. Can hypertrophy still occur? (i know this is a poor example, but you get the concept. [​IMG] )

    I am not saying we should just get our protein requirements right and forget about the rest of the diet.

    Bryan, it would be great if you can elaborate on this!!
  2. stevie

    stevie New Member

    heres a theory...bear with me while i get round to it.

    An extremely simple explination of body metabolism:*
    The energy required by ALL the cells in our bodies is derived from carbon compunds via a vast variety of biochemical pathways. These carbon compounds are delivered to our cells through the blood. The carbon compounds are 'locked' up in more complex compounds ie carbohydrates, proteins and fats.

    So yes, aminoacids are the building blocks of all the proteins in our bodies including muscle. BUT do not forget that they can also be used as an energy source. So my theory is that if calories are too low, that extra protein you are ingesting will primarily enter biochemical pathways for energy production, and thus will not be primarily utilised in muscle formation.
  3. vicious

    vicious New Member

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    Truth is, most protein we eat probably gets used as energy. A friend of mine said that most whey cannot be stored because it gets converted too quickly for the muscle to use, except post-workout. I of course don't believe him. :)

    Your protein:carb ratio is important. If you eat too much protein, your glucagon levels will be too high relative to insulin, causing amino acids to be used as energy. If you eat too many carbohydrates, you easily store fat and cause cortisol levels to rise anyway. Chronically higher insulin levels could weaken your hormonal profile, lowering T and GH levels. Personally I think the ratio should be between 0.8-1.5:1.

    However, our bodies &quot;likes&quot; to use a combination of fat and carbohydrates for energy. Most people function with at least 1000 calories. Few people need 1000 calories of sugar.

    I think people with large amount of glycogen stored in their muscle can lose fat / gain muscle simultenously. Possibly you get away with a lower carb:protein ratio as long as your muscles are replenished.

    Those who do Zone argue that as long as you get your protein needs, match the carb:protein ratio (thereby mantaining an &quot;anabolic&quot; insulin:glucagon balance), your body will do well enough using fat for the remainder of its energy. If not, you can simply add in fat until it does.

  4. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

    i was thinking of a carbs to protein ratio of 1-1.5:1 after hearing the comment by Bryan.

    Previously, i thought for bulking, a carbs to protein ratio of 2-3:1 is much more ideal in promoting an &quot;anabolic&quot; environment. The basis for this is the manipulation of insulin.

    A comment from Lyle further strengthen this belief: &quot;incoming calories after a workout goes towards glycogen replenishment before repairs on muscle can start (another reason to do low volume for hardgainers).&quot; Carbs fill glycogen stores, so it all makes sense.

    Then again, i was putting way too much emphasis on carbs....but my protein intake should be enough, even though its not optimal......hmmm......

    Come on guys, this is an interesting topic! More opinions and discussions!!
  5. vicious

    vicious New Member

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    It's true. In the beginning, most calories are converted to glucose to restore blood glucose levels. As that goes up, insulin goes up and the calories (mostly carbs) then goes to replenishing muscle.

    But, I don't think eating more or less calories necesarrily triggers protein synthesis earlier or later.

    A 60-second set (except deadlift and squat) shouldn't require more than 5g of total energy. Usually it's about 2.5g, so a typical 40-set program - warm up and work sets - would use about 100g.

    It would seem you would need to eat about 100g to fully replenish glycogen levels. However, your muscles can store something like 400-500g of energy and your body uses the glucose already circulating around before it takes in the stores.

    In other words, if you do a regular 45-minute program, eat a moderate carb diet, and don't do cardio, you really don't need to eat an extreme amount of carbs after a workout.

    I think those who do a 2-3:1 bulking diet get in trouble when they aggressively increase calories. If you're eating 2-3:1 carb:protein and the daily balance of glycogen uptake is something like 20g, you will fill your stores (assuming complete depletion initially) in 3-4 weeks. When those stores are completely full, the carbs go straight to the gut.

    I don't believe high insulin levels improve the anabolic environment once that post-workout window has been passed anymore than eating 5000 calories will build more muscle on a 100lbs man than 3000, or 15 hours of sleep will over 9 hours. High insulin levels weakens the hormonal signals and causes a dip in blood glucose, causing cortisol levels to rise.

    Of course, 2-3:1 really isn't that high. But a typical bodybuilder likes to take in at least half his carbs from potatos, rice and so on. On a bulking diet, where carbs predominate, the effect can be more significant.

    I think a good case can be made for increasing fat rather than carbs for additional calories. While it's true that fat can be stored easily (and without insulin signal), that means you're eating more than you need.

    The P:C ratio seems to vary first on calorie #, than the current state of your body. If you came off a very low carb diet, where muscle stores were pretty depleted, go with higher. If you've been eating 500 calories above maintenace at 60-25-15, perhaps move down to 40-40-20, same calories, and see how that works.

  6. tkarrde

    tkarrde New Member

  7. stevie

    stevie New Member

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    energy is not measured in grams. What you said means absolutely nothing. 5g of total energy is used in a 60second set? 5g of what?...ATP?:confused:? Assuming you meant Kilocalories or kilojoules, how do you come to your figure of 5? its dependant upon SOOOOOO many factors.
  8. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Sorry about that. Read another thread about mantaining ketosis through a carb refeed, and Lyle mentioned something about burning or eating 5g of carbohydrates per 2 sets.
    From the activity charts I've seen, an average weight training session (long sets, normal rest periods) burns up to 480 calories per hour for a 170lbs man. Assuming that exercise drew all the energy from muscle stores, it still is only 120g of carbohydrates.

    Increasing monosaturated fat affect your hormonal profile as much as eating extra carbohydrates. I agree however that it is easier to store eaten fat. However muscle, like most organs, would rather use fatty acids for energy in a resting state. If you do drive up the carbohydrates, than yes carbohydrates become your primary source of energy.

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    Some studies I've read have shown that overeating fat have 25-65% lower rates of lipogenesis than same # of calories of carbohydrates overfed.

    I know Lyle states that lipogenesis isn't a big deal, unless the muscle stores are filled to the gills. But I think they will be on a traditional 60-25-15 bulking diet.

  9. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

    We are getting a little off track here.

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    Would like to hear more opinions from anyone.....especially Bryan.
  10. stevie

    stevie New Member

    spencer, we've answered the question as far as logical deduction can take it. if your calorie intake is drastically low, the protein you are taking in will not be used as muscle building blocks but burnt up to provide some energy to try fill the calorie defecit. you will NOT grow unless your calorie intake is high enough.
    Imagine a hierachy where calorie intake is the most important it is -THE most important factor for any kind of growth to occur. protein intake is also important but to a lesser extent. In addition, dont forget that the body is able to make most of the amino acids itself providing there is enough energy to do so. So strictly speaking, for hypertrophy, all you need to ensure is that you are obtaining the essential amino acids and fatty acids together with a slight excess of calories- an excess of calories will enable the body to constuct what it needs.
  11. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Actually Spencer you may want to take look at Bryan Haycock's post under the Protein Poll. Very interesting!

  12. Spencer

    Spencer New Member


    that post just makes things more confusing! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I suppose u find it so....right?

    So, Bryan's comment &quot;Hypertrophy is only dependent on mechanical stimulus and incoming amino acids&quot; is wrong??

    Wonder why Bryan didnt clarify things here as well.....
  13. stevie

    stevie New Member

    no that statement is not wrong, but it is simplified. You cannot take that statement as a stand alone.
    Yes i agree, that other thread became confusing. Sometimes i feel like screaming, 'just tell me what to do to grow and ill do it!!!!!! but can you be consistent with what you tell me please!!!!!!!!!!!'.
  14. vicious

    vicious New Member

    The key word in Bryan's sentence there is &quot;incoming&quot;, because it's actually difficult to &quot;get&quot; the amino acids to go to the muscles. If you could somehow inhibit the usage of amino acids as energy or fat storage, you could probably go by 0.5g/LBM and gain optimally.

    I believe the problem is that we tend to focus on only one factor at a time, out of context, and overgeneralize erroneous conclusions. Raising insulin levels through eating carbohydrates is important to a degree because insulin is the primary storage hormone. But from the books I've read, excessively high insulin levels lowers T, GH, raises cortisol, and can trigger cycles of hunger and weird mood swings from bludgeoned blood sugar levels. Raising glucagon levels through eating protein improves your hormonal profile overall, but then you can't store amino acids or carbohydrates efficiently into the muscles. If your muscle is filled to the gill with glycogen, then you have a mighty surplus for protein synthesis. However if you're depleted (such as coming off a low-carb diet), your gains will be substantially hurt.

    So it seems the more crucial issue is not so much the amount of protein eaten, but the ratio of carbs to protein. That ratio may be affected by # of total calories, state of glycogen stores, insulin resistance, and carb depletion through activity.

  15. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused by my previous comments about amino acids a mechanical load.

    Maybe this will help clarify. If you starve a guy, and surgically remove his gastrocnemius, his soleus will double in size to compensate, even though he is not eating.

    Now this does not mean that this is what you want to do. It only shows that the body is able to increase the size of a muscle when nutrients are next to nill. Nor does this mean that he would grow all over from simply training with weights. More than liely he would not grow unless he was fed.

    So, as far as you and I are concerned, we need both protein and carbs to get our muscle to respond well to lifting weights. I deally, you will consume your protein and a few carbs both immediately before and after training. This is the whole reason why I formulated my pre and post workout proteins. So that if you took them right, you would icnrease your chances of growing as much as possible. Ad a few carbs to them and you are set.
  16. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

    Thanks Bryan,

    It did cleared up the confusion. I think i got a little too excited over your previous comments, probably because i wasnt growing too well and i was focusing more on carbs.

    So can i conclude that the synergistic effect of protein, carbs and fats is the most important factor of a diet rather than the specific parts to it?

    Your posts at the &quot;Protein Poll&quot; thread about 15% protein in a mass diet did make things confusing again... [​IMG] [​IMG] .

    Heres my pre and post workout nutrition:

    I take in about 25g protein and 45g carbs (Half serving of NLarge2) IMMEDIATELY PRE workout but i dont finish it in one go, i sipped on it during the workout as well. Are there any implications concerning any beneficial factors of the workout?? (as in, high insulin deplete GH, T or IGF?)

    I do this on the assumption that the carbs will spare glycogen used during the w/o and the protein delivered more effectively to the muscle. Is this correct?

    Post workout: I take in a packet of Myoplex Mass, which has about 33g protein and 75g carbs MIXED WITH MILK, because i cant stand the taste of that in water. Is this correct?

    Since you want the repairs and glycogen replenishment to be fast here, will the milk hinders and rob the post w/o nutrition of any benefits?
  17. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

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