Initial Muscle LOSS on HST

C

CantBulk

New Member
I just completed my first two weeks on HST and I'm a bit concerned regarding muscle loss.

I have an incredibly hard time gaining muscle mass. I tend to pack more away into body fat. So in measuring my progress for these first two weeks, I was disappointed to see that I had actually lost 1/2" on my arms and another 1/2" to 3/4" from my chest. These were "hard earned" and I hate to see them go.

Is this a normal occurrence when starting HST or any other new plan?
 
I am not an expert on HST but do have a good deal of experience in training. I'll be starting my first HST cycle this week.

If your current workload doing HST is greater than before you started, you may need to adjust your caloric intake. So, if you are doing more exercise now (volume/frequency, etc.) you should increase your caloric intake. ASSuming that you are consuming adequate amounts of protein (1 g/lb) you might consider steadily increasing your carb/healthy fat intake.

Further, don't confuse weight loss and smaller measurements with loss of muscle mass. It's all about body composition, i.e. percentage of body fat to lean mass tissue. I'd recommend that you get your body fat checked on a periodic basis, keeping a keen eye on your bf% and % of lean mass. Most gyms where I live will provide this service for free.
 
you sure you did your measurements correctly? i've found it is awfully hard to actually lose measurable amounts in only two weeks.. i do a SD of 2 weeks after my 8 week cycle, and even then i don't think i've found a loss.. one question is whether you measured the same time both times? the reason i ask is if you measured the first time after a workout, then the second time on a non-workout day or sometime where you hadn't just exercised you'd find that your measurements will vary a bit..
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rory @ Mar. 12 2005,11:48)]If your current workload doing HST is greater than before you started, you may need to adjust your caloric intake.  So, if you are doing more exercise now (volume/frequency, etc.) you should increase your caloric intake..
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I have a separate post in Diet and Nutrition about this issue. If I up my calories past a certain point (about 2200 cals) it all goes straight to my waist. Below that intake and I put muscle on really slowly.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CantBulk @ Mar. 12 2005,1:46)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rory @ Mar. 12 2005,11:48)]If your current workload doing HST is greater than before you started, you may need to adjust your caloric intake.  So, if you are doing more exercise now (volume/frequency, etc.) you should increase your caloric intake..
Click to expand...
I have a separate post in Diet and Nutrition about this issue. If I up my calories past a certain point (about 2200 cals) it all goes straight to my waist. Below that intake and I put muscle on really slowly.
Click to expand...
see my response there

also did your weight change any?
 
If anything i would of thought you should gain a little size during the 15's due to glycogen storage, most likely you need to eat more, you need to hypercaloric (especially during the 15's to setup for the 10's and 5's). Fat gain is assurred, and for all but the genetically elite unavoidable. Build some LBM and then next cycle try and hold onto as much as you can when dieting. Check your total weight and starting weight (keeping in mind when and how you did the original measurement so as to try and minimize the variables, water weight etc can account for large swings).

It would seem almost impossible (short of severe hormonal problems, starvation) to lose the kind of mass your talking about whilst training and eating correctly over only two weeks.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CantBulk @ Mar. 12 2005,12:55)]I just completed my first two weeks on HST and I'm a bit concerned regarding muscle loss.
I have an incredibly hard time gaining muscle mass. I tend to pack more away into body fat. So in measuring my progress for these first two weeks, I was disappointed to see that I had actually lost 1/2" on my arms and another 1/2" to 3/4" from my chest. These were "hard earned" and I hate to see them go.
Is this a normal occurrence when starting HST or any other new plan?
Click to expand...
My intital thought was that your losses are partly due, if not all, from SD. When I SD, I lose too. If you started 15's, then the loss could be fat loss. I notice I drop BF during 15's as well.

I wouldnt wqorry about it until the 6th week or so. The measure and make your conclusion. It took me 3 cycles to determin whether or not HST was for me. lol, I'm still a little unsure.
 
I finished my first week of "10s" and I'm down another 1/2 inch on my chest and another 1/4 inch on my biceps. I've lost more mass in three weeks on HST than I've gained in three months on any other "plan." My diet has remained essentially the same caloric wise, except I cleaned it up a bit, and I also started taking Tribulus and ZMA.

My theory is that the full-body workout three days a week isn't allowing sufficient time for muscle growth. I know one of the primary studies cited for HST states that regeneration occurs more quickly than traditionally believed, but if you're constantly "reopening" those micro-tears, when does the build-up occur?
 
Your experience is directly contrary to what most of us have experienced, which suggests heavily that diet is likely the factor behind your poor gains. You may want to reexamine your diet, maybe jack up the calories some more. You can increase your calories for each day by another 250-500 every week until you start gaining. If I were you, since you are losing size (are you losing weight at the same time??) I would hit the calories up by at least 500 a day, if not more.

Remember that lose of size does not necessarily mean that you have lost muscle. Has your strength diminished at the same time? Have you done a carb refeed on the weekends?
 
You gotta eat like a horse...You need at least a gram of protein for pound of body weight divided up at meals with not more than 60 grams per meal.

Chuck down...Whey Protein, Creatine and L'Glutamine. I use OnWhey, EAS Phosphagen HP and LGlutamine caps 3,000 to 6,000 units a day.

I see BB in the gym everyday working out for hours. Why do I know this, because I go back to pick up a friend. I wrap in 35 minutes to 1 hour and I get a great workout.
Those lazy BB aren't making the gains, because they sit on their duffs most of their workouts between sets. They're not sweating or even breathing hard. Most would do better to take up golf or at least just spend their hour on a treadmill.

Sure the HSt leaves a little latitude for some relaxed workouts, between rep change cycles. I just push up on those cycles now and always get great workouts. I'm not trying to be a musclehead...I just believe if I'm gonna do it. Doit now and doit right, and don't waste time and effort.

I'll take my 13 days off in another month on my current cycle.
 
@Cantbulk: do not blame the system before you can be shure that you did everything right.

look: the 15 are just (almost) "pure" metabolic work..the need for post workout carbs (for glykogen storage)is extremly high afterwards..most people underestimate it strongly.so did I.

take a shitload of carbs post workout..after a lot of metabolic work you really do not have to be afraid of gaining fat.your muscles will look fuller and there will not be any size-loss at all,quite the contrary..

direct post workout about 100-150g of carbs and 2hours later the same amount will do the trick..

In any case you should use this gaining-window more seriously to gain mass.the longer I train the more I come to the cognition that this post workout-time is really the time when bulking is forced.

when someone loses size,while working out and while be able to increase load then the answer is not overtraining.
it is the missing carb-thing that makes muscles look flat and size seams to shrink.

Post workout carbs after a workout with high metabolic stress is the ticket for more size and fuller muscles due to glycogen storage!

regards
 
good point hannesburk, on the carbs.

I gorge down a bunch of carbs with my other supplements on workout days (after workout). I go light on the carbs on my off weight training days. I do 1 hour on the treadmill every other day for burning fat and pumping up my cardio.

I only train weights every other day for appx 1 hour..12 exercises max.

The 15s are great...in fact I frequently work 15s 4 weeks before I start onto 10s and 8s. I don't do the fives...I don't know what it is, but if I can do fives I can always seem to do eights easy enough.

I only do 2 sets period regardless of the volume thing. I make sure I do my required reps for sure first set and I'll do drops (lower the weight, not the reps) on the second set if I'm not feeling strong enough after the first set.

---------------

Finally...the biggest point of all --read the articles on HST on this site. Read them over and over until you understand the entire training system very well. These kinds of threads (about NO GAINS) would never be posted if everyone read and understood those articles.

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thumbs-up.gif
 
1. With everything being optimal you can expect maybe at most 10 to 20% increase in muscle in a half of a year. Overall that's not a whole lot of weight, remember I said muscle not FFM.
2. Your size will diminish if your BF% is relatively high, since you will more than likely lose fat.
3. Muscle repairs itself and rebuilds as long as your overall net Protein Synthesis is positive even under constant loading conditions. A whole body 3X week will not inhibit the repair process, this is an old school line of thought.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (hannesburk @ Mar. 22 2005,6:27)]do not blame the system before you can be sure that you did everything right
take a shitload of carbs post workout
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I'm not blaming the system at all.  :)
Genetically, we're all different and so we'll respond differently. I'm just trying to troubleshoot why something that seems to work so well for so many isn't working for me.
Diet has always been a problem for me. Even a slight increase in calories goes straight to my gut...this was even the case when I was doing 7 hours of kick-boxing a week. (Not doing that anymore.) Prior to HST, I was building mass VERY SLOWLY on the same diet, but now I'm losing.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CantBulk @ Mar. 22 2005,8:27)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (hannesburk @ Mar. 22 2005,6:27)]do not blame the system before you can be sure that you did everything right
take a shitload of carbs post workout
Click to expand...
I'm not blaming the system at all.  :)
Genetically, we're all different and so we'll respond differently. I'm just trying to troubleshoot why something that seems to work so well for so many isn't working for me.
Click to expand...
Then let's troubleshoot.

What's your current height?
What's your current weight?
Do you know your BF%?
What's your body type? Even though I think you've already elluded to it, let's spell it out.
How much exercise do you do daily, including HST?
How many grams of Carbs are you eating daily?
Fat?
Protein?
How often are you eating?
Do you track your energy intake?

Genetically yes, we are different, but physiologically we are basically all the same, so let's not bring genetics into it for know. Let's concentrate on what we CAN control.

Help us out and I am sure there are many here who will help you out. :D
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CantBulk @ Mar. 22 2005,9:27)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (hannesburk @ Mar. 22 2005,6:27)]do not blame the system before you can be sure that you did everything right
take a shitload of carbs post workout
Click to expand...
I'm not blaming the system at all.  :)
Genetically, we're all different and so we'll respond differently. I'm just trying to troubleshoot why something that seems to work so well for so many isn't working for me.
Diet has always been a problem for me. Even a slight increase in calories goes straight to my gut...this was even the case when I was doing 7 hours of kick-boxing a week. (Not doing that anymore.) Prior to HST, I was building mass VERY SLOWLY on the same diet, but now I'm losing.
Click to expand...
Don't feel like you're alone. I lost 40 pounds on the Atkins diet before I started weight training.

I gained back 20+pounds in the almost immediately when I started weight training, but my waist size stayed within 1 inch of my lowest weight waist size.

I've been steady at the weights, but I've moved to 1 hour everyother day on the treadmill to burn more calories. I don't do but 2 sets of my exercises with weights, because I'm not trying to burn the muscle I'm trying to build. So...I thought the treadmill would give me better cardio and do the calorie burn I needed.

I'm pleased with the results so far. I've kept my 33-34 inch waist line and I'm significantly more muscular all over my body.

I view the process as ....like stopping a car. Momentum keeps things going, but eventually it will stop.

Of course...my clothes don't fit for poot. I'm reluctant to buy more because I'm changing so much. I'm down to one suit and two sport coats now. I bought four pair of new jeans for my 33 inch waist, but my butt and thighs have grown so much that those slim-fit jeans are mashing the far#s outta me.

What a way to live.
worship.gif
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Mar. 22 2005,7:54)]Then let's troubleshoot.
Click to expand...
What's your current height?
5' 10"

What's your current weight?
190#

Do you know your BF%?
12%

What's your body type?
Endomorph - picture a pear
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Actually, it's not that bad. I've lost a lot of weight...I still "think fat"

How much exercise do you do daily, including HST?
Weight train three days per week for 50 minutes per day
Cardio 45 to 60 minutes three times per week (opposite weight training)
One day off

How many grams of Carbs are you eating daily?
About 230g

Fat?
about 45g (20%)

Protein?
190 grams

How often are you eating?
five to six times per day

Do you track your energy intake?
Yes, I average about 2100 cals per day. At 2400 cals per day I was putting inches on my waist too fast; about 1/2 inch for every inch in chest gain. (Since I started training, I've gone from a 39" to 43" chest, but my waist went from 33" sneaking to 35")
 
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