"Lactic acid does not stimulate growth"...?

I love you Eric Gagne. Can we clone you? (Watching the Cubs/Dodgers game as I type)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Just to be certain on my side, would you say that this is a result of not performing higher-rep sets at least part of the time?
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Oh, it's a combination of things for the HD2er . . .

1) He does maybe 2 total work sets for the bodypart.
2) Each set is about 6-10 reps with roughly 1/2 cadence. That's at best 30 seconds of continuous tension per set.
3) He probably avoids cardio during the bulk.
4) Yet he still takes 8-12 days off. Is this a way to keep your metabolic conditioning? Hellz no! ;)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]In another thread you mentioned adding pulses for the arms after the sets of 5s. I've got to tell you, for a long time, it didn't seem that I was getting any growth during the 5s ... until I added the pulses after the heavy sets
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Hannesburke observed the same thing too. It's magic. ;) But, yeah, pulses are a super-efficient way to generate a lot of metabolic stress in a very short amount of time. They are really good in a proper EDT-style regimen, which may be useful for people interested in alternating PL and density training cycles.

NWLifter and I were talking about making a traditional MWF split more hypertrophy-oriented. I felt that one important element that needed to be added wasn't necessarily an aggressive increase of strain techniques; the infrequency of training per bodypart should allow significant microtrauma session to session, provided the load was progressive. But, one might have to aggressively include metabolic stress techniques in order to improve or mantain the metabolic state. It's easy to keep on a 3x-a-week program, but on a once-a-week regimen, you might hav to implement additional density training after your work sets. Never to failure, of course.

cheers,
Jules
 
vicious
since incorporating some elemets of dc training i have made great gains comparing when i was using the 5 rep in hst.

anyway rest pausing to 15 reps using a weight of max 8 reps my gains skyrocketed.no doubt about it dc works.do you know the reasons dc works?is it the stretches or rep range?
 
I wrote a breakdown on DC training a few months ago (you can look in the Basic Training section), and will post a revised take on it (I missed out on the DC rest-pause gains bit) in the Customizing thread someday . . .

The DC program is aggressive with mechanical strain and metabolic stress. By using loaded stretching (and having the myotatic reflex kick up effective peak tension through the stretched part of the muscle) on most of the bodyparts, he amplifies the strain/MAPKp38 signal to levels only accessible were a trainee using negative-heavy training. By using rest-pause, he implements a sort of density training which creates a horrible amount of metabolic stress. Finally, he uses a bulking diet structure that enables his trainees to eat very high caloric diets without a pronounced risk of bodyfat increase.

Or, rather, his trainees to eat big, then he bumps up the metabolic stress techniques (through the rest-pause and non-WO short cardio sessions), so that the body is storing this caloric intake as efficiently as possible. This plays off the idea of letting diet dictate your training. Believe it or not, this sort of bulking/training philosophy was the status quo up until the beginning of the 90s. Parillo, who was notorious for his insane high-calorie diets, discussed at length about using the body as a storage factory. And this is how most athletes have trained.

Then, HIT and split routines became very popular in the 90s, and then people started making generalizations about recovery and cardio catabolism and carbs=devil, etc. Anyhow, this eventually created a downward pressure where bulking diet recommendations became more and more conservative, which was perhaps appropriate given the nature of the routines. Max-OT is sort of the most popular descendant of that school of thinking.

The mechanical strain techniques DC uses (cluster, LS, some DCers do high-load static holds as well), feeds off the traditional wisdom of letting your training dictate the diet. Ergo, the high protein demands. But, his group of people happen to be very good at doing the timed carb intake thing and eating sufficient post-WO carbs, because again they understand that DC is still a performance-oriented system. The DC system pursues both progressive and absolute load more aggressively than any other program in existence, outside of HST. And thus, the strain it generates on the muscle is always significant.

Even though DC is more or less 2x-a-week per bodypart, it would generate better results than classic HST provided you can muster the intensity and eat big. The mechanical strain is roughly equivalent to 5s/post-5s. But the metabolic stress is that of Strossen's 20-rep programs, which isn't true for HST's 5s program. Although I'll probably draw fire for saying this, but you can view it as a super, super tweaked version of a old-school HG routine.

Now a person can take their classic HST program and tweak that too. Although I can hand somebody an extreme HST program, I think everybody needs to find what their limits are.

Anyhoo, in short . . .

1) Rest Pause = cluster (high volume at high load = more p38) + density training (short rest period = higher erk1/2 activity)

2) Loaded stretch = high p38 through initiating reflex (though DC's approach arguably produces diminishing results for certain DC stretches due to detraining effect of said reflex)

3) Continuous progressive load = no need for SD (albeit, load steps may not be ideal and the rotate-the-exercise MU management scheme is not optimal for strain)

4) Aggressive high protein bulk, which for most folk would be a 750-1500 caloric surplus. (Hello ABCDE! ;) )

5) Fear of Dante going Old Testament on their "but I can't eat anymore protein Mr. Doggcrapp" butts. ;)

cheers,
Jules
 
do post a revised take on dc.

2) Loaded stretch = high p38 through initiating reflex (though DC's approach arguably produces diminishing results for certain DC stretches due to detraining effect of said reflex)

well if you use progressive load on tthe loaded stretches then the reflex will be not detrained
 
the rotate-the-exercise MU management scheme is not optimal for strain)

vicious
then why does dc uses 3 exercises per rotation?what is the rationale behind this?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]well if you use progressive load on tthe loaded stretches then the reflex will be not detrained
Click to expand...

The reflex actually always gets detrained when you use it. It's always most pronounced the first few times you perform the loaded stretch. Moreover, because in DC, the LS are done after heavy metabolic stress is applied, the reflex kicks in a bit later than it would otherwise. The progressive load helps to fight this, but not all DC/fascia stretches easily facilitate progressive load. Finally, the longer you go on a stretch, after a certain point, you won't be able to generate a higher tension response due to a relaxation counterresponse. That's not a knock against DC, just that there's a practical limit to using the reflex to generate higher tension.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]then why does dc uses 3 exercises per rotation?what is the rationale behind this?
Click to expand...

It's primarily necessary in order to vary the MU recruitment pool and manage the amount of fatigue. Each session torches your CNS connection for that part, but does it differently than the session before. For example, if you do dips one day, then incline press for the other, the lower pecs and delts do not get torched both sessions. Also, because DCers rotate between free weight, free bodyweight, and machines, the stabilization factor varies, which adjusts the neural drive requirement. Or to pit it another way, a person would be crazy to do 20-rep at-the-floor squats for every leg day, but if say he interspersed it with hack squats and leg press, suddenly it's more feasible. The rotation creates a sort of cycling scheme for the CNS fatigue. The disadvantage to this, though, is that the strain you apply to the muscle does vary session to session in sort of zig-zag fashion.

cheers,
Jules
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]how do you explain the wicked strength gains made on dc?
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The strength gains on DC are actually similar to what is achieved on Max-OT, and actually those users see even better strength gains than DCers provided they make mass gains on their Max-OT program.

1) Frequency is twice every 7-10 days. Traditionally, that's the frequency range that HD2ers and HGers use to increase strength.

2) The 3-exercise rotation strategy implementing a sort of neural-drive cycling scheme

3) Although DC is a strength-oriented program, its requisite load ranges (as with many >5RM failure-based programs) and slow cadence means there's a significant requirement for metabolic efficiency as well as overall CNS adaptations in optimal functional performance. The combination of the bulking diet and high metabolic stress enables both high glycogen storage and significant endurance-related adaptations, taking care of a big part of the DC program. In comparison, Max-OT is much less influenced by this metabolic issue, because the rep cadence is more traditional and the rep range is very short.

4) Green tea is a mild stimulant.

5) Finally, any program that successfully puts on a lot of mass (such as DC), enables the possibility of enormous strength gains. The same applies for HST. If somebody were to put on 8-10lbs in a cycle, he should see sizable strength gains were he to implement a 5x5 cycle at the end of his HST program and test for that.

cheers,
Jules
 
Some thoughts. These are relatively minor, without rewriting the DC plan altogether . . .

1) Obvious thing would be the SD. Aside from deconditioning, you would see a huge CNS response from having a proper break. Thus, big strength boost. I would probably just take 9-12 days off, then add a week or so, of cruising. Then go full hog again starting at the weight you left..

2) I *might* include the stretches earlier in the routine, perhaps after your first normal/RP set for that bodypart. The huge amount of *prior* metabolic fatigue weakens the p38 signaling effect you get with the stretches . . . and it makes them easier as well. Now, there is significant risk with this; your apparent strength performance will suffer, since the extreme stretching could cause a significant decoupling effect. If so, then use that first rest pause set for said bodypart as a guage for your current strength-limit level. So, you may not want to take up this change.

3) I would consider adding "metabolic workouts" every 2-3 days for a bodypart, IF that bodypart isn't unusually sore or weakened. That would entail doing a very short workout session using a pretty light 15s set with some kind of compound movement *machine* (to reduce stabilization-related stress.) Some steady-state cardio. If you have a proper DC workout that day, then you add in the exercises either in the beginning or ending. The exercises would vary session to session, depending on what bodypart needs to be hit. Practically speaking, you may not want to hit your legs 2 days after a 20-rep breathing squat session. But it may be fine 2 days after hack squats or leg presses. The rationale is to stimulate muscle metabolism a little, so that the protein synthesis elevate almost through the entire period.

cheers,
Jules
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dunhoonK @ May 25 2005,5:14)]I was looking through this site of a guy name Josh Stone ( http://www.johnstonefitness.com/all/side/m.php )
and he has gotten quite ripped in a short amount of time...So I looked up his lifting plan called Max-OT and was reading through the general principles/foundation of this plan.
Click to expand...
Just a little background here. This guy went for over two years getting almost nowhere with bulking. He took enormous grief about it and then, all of a sudden, put on about 30 lbs. and looked much more muscular. He says he doesn't use steroids but it is widely speculated that he does and it would explain his sudden burst of growth after the severe criticism got to him. He's also suffered several bad injuries along the way due to silly, overzealous training methods. The moral of the story is to take what you read on amateurish training sites like his with a large grain of salt.
 
vicious

I would probably just take 9-12 days off, then add a week or so, of cruising. Then go full hog again starting at the weight you left>

dont you think it is better to start lower weight than the weight you left?as for the load to be effective you have to surpass the weight you left?


in dc there is only 1 set.do you think that this 1 set can provide huge hypertrophy as it is 2 sets bodypart week?

dc said that for legs that dont grow a set of 4-8 reps then a 20 rep set with a weight you can do 12 only?do you think you have to go to this extrteme?what is the purpose of this 20 rep?you can just do a set of 15-20 reps after the set 4-8 doing the 15-20 rep with a lighter load instead of of using a load max of 12 reps rest pause to 20?
 
also dc does only 1 set of stetches duration 45-60 s per bodypart?do you think that you need to stick to 60 s or less?what is the ideal duration?do you recommend more than 1 set of this loaded stretch or 2 sets of ls are better?
 
vicious

I would probably just take 9-12 days off, then add a week or so, of cruising. Then go full hog again starting at the weight you left>

dont you think it is better to start lower weight than the weight you left?as for the load to be effective you have to surpass the weight you left?


in dc there is only 1 set.do you think that this 1 set can provide huge hypertrophy as it is 2 sets bodypart week?

dc said that for legs that dont grow a set of 4-8 reps then a 20 rep set with a weight you can do 12 only?do you think you have to go to this extrteme?what is the purpose of this 20 rep?you can just do a set of 15-20 reps after the set 4-8 doing the 15-20 rep with a lighter load instead of of using a load max of 12 reps rest pause to 20?

also dc does only 1 set of stetches duration 45-60 s per bodypart?do you think that you need to stick to 60 s or less?what is the ideal duration?do you recommend more than 1 set of this loaded stretch or 2 sets of ls are better?

last question what do you think of the static done after the last rest pause?do you think it has its benefits in producing strength and growth?what is its purpose?
 
vicious

I would probably just take 9-12 days off, then add a week or so, of cruising. Then go full hog again starting at the weight you left>

dont you think it is better to start lower weight than the weight you left?as for the load to be effective you have to surpass the weight you left?


in dc there is only 1 set.do you think that this 1 set can provide huge hypertrophy as it is 2 sets bodypart week?

dc said that for legs that dont grow a set of 4-8 reps then a 20 rep set with a weight you can do 12 only?do you think you have to go to this extrteme?what is the purpose of this 20 rep?you can just do a set of 15-20 reps after the set 4-8 doing the 15-20 rep with a lighter load instead of of using a load max of 12 reps rest pause to 20?

also dc does only 1 set of stetches duration 45-60 s per bodypart?do you think that you need to stick to 60 s or less?what is the ideal duration?do you recommend more than 1 set of this loaded stretch or 2 sets of ls are better?

last question what do you think of the static done after the last rest pause?do you think it has its benefits in producing strength and growth?what is its purpose?
 
vicious
what do you think of dc split routine?
monday chest delt triceps back

wednesday biceps forearms traps hams calves and quads

friday same as monday
saturday and sunday off

is it an optimal split where there is no overlap compared to max ot?
or would you modify the split to make it better?if so what split would you propose?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]dont you think it is better to start lower weight than the weight you left?as for the load to be effective you have to surpass the weight you left?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's very true, but I feel angsty about reworking DC's program even more. In theory, you could probably go back at least a month in terms of reusing loads, but it's difficult to determine how many reps you would have to do. If you go all-out, which creates CNS stress, then it defeats the purpose of going backwards in terms of loads. You could arbitrarily stop at the same # of reps that you did a month ago, I suppose. That would work.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]in dc there is only 1 set.do you think that this 1 set can provide huge hypertrophy as it is 2 sets bodypart week?
Click to expand...

Remember that sets, as are all volume discussions, require context. DC is not a Big Four program. For any given session, you'll be hitting bodyparts directly or indirectly 2 or 3 times from just your work sets. A work set may be rest-paused, which roughly works out to two work sets per exercise for given relative load (i.e. 15-20 reps for 10RM.) Finally, you add in loaded stretches. DC looks like low volume, but it's more moderate than non-DC trainees realize.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]dc said that for legs that dont grow a set of 4-8 reps then a 20 rep set with a weight you can do 12 only?
Click to expand...

From the standpoint of weightlifting tradition, 20-rep squats is as time-honoured as they come. 20-rep squats produce a sick amount of metabolic stress and offer a form of clustering at a fairly high load. Finally, there's a possibility that clustering/density training could produce higher strain than contiguous reps. I'm working out a variation of 20-rep and Gironda with some people that more or less replicates that. But I'm not completely sure how well it will work. Again, from DC's point of view, 20-rep squats are part of the training methodology that has worked through the years.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]also dc does only 1 set of stetches duration 45-60 s per bodypart?do you think that you need to stick to 60 s or less?what is the ideal duration?do you recommend more than 1 set of this loaded stretch or 2 sets of ls are better?
Click to expand...

Really, there is no ideal duration. It's more apparent if you read some of the flexibility training manuals out there. I only recommend shorter times because HST is high frequency and because the stretch loads begin near your 5RM. You need less duration to benefit from it. Whereas on DC, the lower frequency and more moderate stretch loads (with some exceptions) requires longer times.

Also, it's not desirable to do multiple sets of LS, because you'll speed up the detraining of the stretch reflex. The emphasis should be on continuous time per stretch, where the reflex increases the tension signal. At some time duration, an inverse relaxation response will kick in. Then the tension peaks or goes back down. You don't want to stretch that long. You don't want to detrain your reflex to be able to stretch that long. But 45-60s is reasonable for what he wants his trainees to do.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]is it an optimal split where there is no overlap compared to max ot?
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Max-OT templates are wacky because some templates have a lot of upper-torso overlap, and other templates don't. Dude didn't think through his workout plan well enough. Week to week, your results seem to bop and weave.

DC's push-pull-leg split is good for managing the CNS stress. But I think it might help to throw in metabolic sets periodically every 2 days or so. For example, on leg and pulling days, throw in a 15-rep set with a machine chest press. On pulling and pushing days, throw in a 15-rep leg press set or do bike/stair cardio. On pushing and leg days, throw in a 15-rep row and pulldown set. All done at a very light weight just enough to cause some burn.

cheers,
Jules
 
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