My Knees have gone!!! Help!!!

I

ian

New Member
We’ll, they’re not gone, I can still walk etc, but they pretty much ache all of the time now. There’s not visible damage, but the Dr said there’s fluid on them and there swollen, so I’m on anti inflamatories and I’m waiting to see a physio for a full diagnosis!

I’m not sure why this has started to occur, I’ve recently moved to cold hilly Leeds from sunny flat Liverpool which may have had some sort of an effect!

It’s probably down to years of heavy squatting, but I’m only 24 and I’ve haven’t been training legs particularly regularly or heavy since I’ve moved city.

Anyway, I’ve been told by the Dr to stop squatting, but that other leg movements in the gym will do me good and may help to strengthen the area (before I can go to physio and find out exactly what’s wrong)

Can anyone suggest a good leg workout for my situation, perhaps any advice or exercises to avoid?

Thanks!!!!!
 
The "Dr." gave you incorrect advice about the squat. First, he does not know how you perform the squat. Second, if you perform it incorrectly, he can't advise you on the correct technique. If the problem comes from incorrect technique in the squat then learn the correct technique. The squat, while it may be named as such only when we lift a bar on our shoulders in front or behind, is actually a fundamental position for the human body. We squat to sit and pick up objects. At least we used to. Now we bend at the waist. Because we sit in chairs.

If the problem comes from some injury, then consult a doctor. Some things that help lower extremities. Raise them above your torso when you sleep, rest or sit. Massage them. Apply cold to reduce swelling. Apply hot to accelerate healing and to reduce pain.
 
If you don't have one already, get hold of a copy of Starting Strength by Rippetoe and Kilgore's and read the chapter on the squat. It is stuffed full of useful information to ensure that your squat technique is going to help rather than hinder the working of your knees under load. If the link in Quad's post is the Dan John seminar then do watch that too.

Of course, it is possible that your technique is fine and that the cause of your trouble is nothing to do with squatting at all. You may need to let your knees rest for a few weeks and see if they improve. If they do, I would then start doing some regular high rep squat work (say 20 reps per set - and ensure you understand and practice correct squat technique for all reps) and see how your knees react to that. You could try that 2 or 3 times a week. Really getting a burn going in your quads, hams and glutes will help aid in healing your joints. Remember that higher rep work (eg. 15s) is used to flush all tissues and joints (as far as possible) with lactate. This encourages angiogenesis for blood flow and for tendon growth and repair.

Some high rep leg extensions and leg curls would also help with lactic acid production but don't go heavy with these as your knee joints are not working optimally when performing these isolation exercises (ie. the forces on the joints are not as balanced as they are when deep squatting - see Starting Strength for a full explanation).

Hope your knees start improving soon.
 
Bump to Lol, as usual. I'm using Cissus 2x/day and it seems to help the wornout aging joints somewhat. Glucosamine and chondroitin don't work for me very well. But that's about all you see sold on the shelves here. The fish oil was a good suggestion too.
 
Thanks for all of your replies!
And your all right (to my embarrassment).

I can't believe my technique has been bad!
I have trained with so many good bodybuilders/ power lifters, fitness athletes etc in the past and I do pride myself on a good gym knowledge, but I believe after sometime off training legs, i have made the cardinal sin of trying to lift too heavier weights and have begun to move my knees and shoulders well ahead off my toes.

I’m fuming with myself for making such a school boy error, but made up that i have hopefully found the solution to my problem.

Thanks again!!!
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 12 2008,10:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bump to Lol, as usual. I'm using Cissus 2x/day and it seems to help the wornout aging joints somewhat. Glucosamine and chondroitin don't work for me very well. But that's about all you see sold on the shelves here. The fish oil was a good suggestion too.</div>
Cissus?
 
<div>
(ian @ Jan. 14 2008,04:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks for all of your replies!
And your all right (to my embarrassment).

I can't believe my technique has been bad!
I have trained with so many good bodybuilders/ power lifters, fitness athletes etc in the past and I do pride myself on a good gym knowledge, but I believe after sometime off training legs, i have made the cardinal sin of trying to lift too heavier weights and have begun to move my knees and shoulders well ahead off my toes.

I’m fuming with myself for making such a school boy error, but made up that i have hopefully found the solution to my problem.

Thanks again!!!</div>
Don't worry about it too much, you'd be surprised how many people have bad form even though they think they have good form. This is because it is hard to find people who actually know the right way to do things, and it is hard to teach yourself based on videos/texts/etc.

For example, I can't bench worth crap, which obviously means my form must be bad, since I can deadlift, squat and row twice as much as many guys who are benching twice as much as me. Apparently, I have a lot to learn in that arena.

So I feel your pain. Just do what you can - start off light, relearn the squat slowly and take your time building the weight back up. It may take a while, and I know how hard it is to be patient, but in a couple years, you'll look back and be glad you took it slow.
Even though it sounds like you do know good squat technique, you were just pushing the weights too fast, you should still take it slow. That way the movement hopefully becomes ingrained so that even when you push for maximal effort, you still maintain good form.

Anyway, good luck. I'd still look into the supplemental solutions the guys came up with, as well as the rehab that Lol suggested, so if you do have form problems in the future, your knees will hopefully be a lot more resilient than they are now.
 
Dont forget about stretching either. A lot of people routinely do quads, hams and calfs, but forget about the iliotibial band, the glutes, the hip flexors, and piriformis. Tightness in any of those can cause knee, hip, or back pain. Stretching also helps keep tendons and ligaments healthy.
 
Well i finally went to physio....

went in, got some student who asked me every question in the whole world, seemed quite thorough, only problem was she was proper dozy and forgot everything i said, in the end she was writing down stuff on her arm to go and tell the main physio every few minutes.


So i told her about the bad form squatting theory, about going the gym etc, i'm sitting there in a tiny vest looking twice as big as arnie, she even tried to push against my leg while i extended it and i threw her across the room and she goes, 'so, do you ever do any exercise!' arghhhhhhhhhhh!!!

in the end she gave me 3 exercises to do....

- leg raises concentrating on squeezing the quads
3 sets of ten, hold for ten seconds at the top

- these things were you lay on your side, bend your knees so your back, shoulders and feet are in line. keep your feet together, tense your glutes and then open your knees.
2 sets to failure

- these things where you lay back on the bed holding one knee and stretch the other leg down
3 sets on each leg, hold each rep for 30 seconds, 10 reps (thats 30 mins in total for that one exercise)

I said that they'd be too easy, as while my legs are crap, i've still been doing them with weights for about 10 years and your clearly giving me an old womans routine so she changed leg raises for squats against the wall (holding at the bottom for 10 seconds)

She said they're because my quads and glutes are weak.

And she said do it three times a day!!!

Just seems weird because...
1/ she was dozy and kept having to run out and ask the boss
2/ 3 times a day is amazing when you consider everything i've ever done says once a week or your body can't recover
3/ 30 minutes for one exercise?
4/ I thought my hamstrings were super weak? What about them?
5/ seems like i've got a routine for someone thats never been then gym, while i know my quads aren't great do to bad squating, i can still do 100000k on extensions with good form?
6/ only the squats feel like an exercise, the rest are just stretches i could do all week


Anyway, just a bit of a rant, i'll do it until my next session next week, just wondered what you thought?
 
Well, i only did the exercises twice yesterday and it was a saturday, so i don't know how i'm going to fit it in on a work day.

the squats feel ok,
i just don't get the side raise things, no weight, they don't particulary use my body weight, i could do them all day unless i'm doing them wrong?
Same with the strech on the bed, it's doing more damage to the springs of my bed than anything else!!!

Also, should i still be doing legs in the gym???
 
I am dumbfounded to hear the solution you've been given by a professional health therapist. I can't take it seriously and I would have a hard time even considering applying it to my problem if I had one.

Do you have access to a Olympic weightlifting training facility where there's a real coach who knows real stuff? Go and get trained for real by a real coach training real athletes for real sports. Now that's for the proper training. As for the proper medical treatment, see a sports medical doctor. They know their stuff when it comes to sports so they know the appropriate solutions and how to apply them. Hell, they even know not to mess with a real coach's training program. And if you don't have one, they'll tell you to get one.
 
Thanks for the reply,

I haven't got access to an Olympic weightlifting coach etc, my gyms a bit of a dungeon and all of the other local ones are fitness centres were most personal trainers etc have less of a clue than the members.

I just can't get over the fact i'm supposed to do these things 3 times a day!!!

I mean from a recovery point i'd have thought it would be impossible, but also just logistically, fitting three workouts into a day in which i wake at 7, leave for work 40 minutes later, and dont get home until 7?

I'm lost!!!
 
From the light weights or no weights, there is no recovery necessary. It's not using hypertrophy principles, but rather just joint lubrication. Our thinking doesn't apply here. The fish oil is still a good suggestion for you and it won't hurt your program to do this. I can't say wether or not you should be doing legs right now though, since your program may hinder theirs. She does sound like a bit of a ditz tho. I would have been offended that the doc didn't see me himself.
There is an orthopedic surgeon at our church who once asked if I'd like to be young again. Duh, yeah...and he said I should stretch everything 3x a day.
And who has time or inclination for that? But he's probably right.
 
Let me throw my two cents in here. ian, you've gotten some world-class advice from the everyone who has responded. I must say, there are times when collectively this forum knows a heck of a lot more about human physiology (especially exercise physiology) than medical pros.

My suggestion comes from being a gymnast for 9 years in my formative years. I destroyed my knees (and ankles and wrists and shoulders etc.). I'm now 31 years old; back when I was in my mid-20's, my knees got so bad that I couldn't walk in the mornings. Pretty regularly, I'd fall out of bed and use our dog to help me get up to crack my darn knees into place.

I rehabbed my knees using single-leg extensions. I started crazy light, and worked my way up. It helped tremendously - within about a month, I was able to actually walk in the mornings. I think it's a wonderful exercise to use to rehab the joint.

Fast forward to April of last year, when I actively started watching this forum. I re-learned the squat technique, and must say that once you get it down, your knees won't be affected. Take it slow, completely re-learn the form, and you'll be fine.

You may want to consider doing those SL extensions for a while - just to add some support to your knee structure as you re-learn your squat form.

Good luck, ian.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top