*NEW* Strategic deconditioning study.

asteve5

New Member
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-012-2511-9
"To compare the effects of a periodic resistance training (PTR) program with those of a continuous resistance training (CTR) program on muscle size and function, 14 young men were randomly divided into a CTR group and a PTR group. Both groups performed high-intensity bench press exercise training [75 % of one repetition maximum (1-RM); 3 sets of 10 reps] for 3 days per week. The CTR group trained continuously over a 24-week period, whereas the PTR group performed three cycles of 6-week training (or retraining), with 3-week detraining periods between training cycles. After an initial 6 weeks of training, increases in cross-sectional area (CSA) of the triceps brachii and pectoralis major muscles and maximum isometric voluntary contraction of the elbow extensors and 1-RM were similar between the two groups. In the CTR group, muscle CSA and strength gradually increased during the initial 6 weeks of training. However, the rate of increase in muscle CSA and 1-RM decreased gradually after that. In the PTR group, increase in muscle CSA and strength during the first 3-week detraining/6-week retraining cycle were similar to that in the CTR group during the corresponding period. However, increase in muscle CSA and strength during the second 3-week detraining/6-week retraining cycle were significantly higher in the PTR group than in the CTR group. Thus, overall improvements in muscle CSA and strength were similar between the groups. The results indicate that 3-week detraining/6-week retraining cycles result in muscle hypertrophy similar to that occurring with continuous resistance training after 24 weeks."

This group had previously studied the effects of shorter term results from a like protocol, which Bryan had posted about a year or so ago. The trend in hypertrophy rates from earlier studies would suggest over time, as we like to believe greater hypertrophy gains should be seen in the train/detrain group. However, even after 24 weeks, muscle CSA is still equal.

Obviously limitations here might be the length of the detraining period, untrained individuals and perhaps just that these expected superior results may just take more time to materialize.

Authors share Bryan's ideas;
"our PTR group exhibited an identical increase in TB-CSA and PM-CSA muscles
during the second retraining period (weeks 18–24). If the
same retraining effects occurred after 24 weeks of training,
and if continuous long-term training induced decreased
muscle adaptations, 3-week detraining/6-week retraining
cycles may produce greater muscle hypertrophic responses
compared with continuous training cycles after 24 weeks.
Our results are in agreement with those of the previous
cellular and molecular studies. Chronic muscle contraction
induces a variety of metabolic and morphological adaptations in contracted skeletal muscles for maintaining
homeostasis and minimizing cellular disturbances during
subsequent training sessions (Gordon et al. 2012; Hubal
et al. 2008). In the muscle, anabolic mammalian target of
rapamycin (mTOR) signaling and protein synthesis
responses to resistance exercise are attenuated by chronic
resistance training (Coffey et al. 2006; Phillips et al. 1999,
2002; Tang et al. 2008). These results may explain the
attenuated muscle hypertrophy response observed during
the late phase compared to the early phase of resistance
training. In contrast, our results suggest that although
greater relative stimulation (i.e., greater intensity, volume,
frequency) would be required to sustain anabolic responses
for further adaptations, these responses would become
sensitive again after a short detraining or non-training
period. These mechanisms may be responsible for
retraining-induced muscle hypertrophy and the advantage
of periodic training programs, at least in young individuals."
 
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"Untrained individuals" is the big one here.

SD as a protocol is intended to overcome the plateauing that comes with repeated bout effect (RBE).

RBE isn't an issue for untrained individuals. In fact, it's probably not an issue for the first 18-24months ... ?


Thanks nonetheless :)
 
"Untrained individuals" is the big one here.

SD as a protocol is intended to overcome the plateauing that comes with repeated bout effect (RBE).

RBE isn't an issue for untrained individuals. In fact, it's probably not an issue for the first 18-24months ... ?


Thanks nonetheless :)

In a sense it's showing it IS an issue, otherwise the non-continuous group wouldn't have had elevated rates of hypertrophy during their 6 week cycles (after the first) compared to the continuous group. But yah, I'd really, really like to see something similar in more trained subjects (with more total subjects, for that matter).

What's interesting, of course, is that both groups had similar end results. This would lead me to think that somewhere between the continuous and non-continuous group might be an SD protocol that actually results in greater total effect than just training continuously. That, of course, would be the sweet spot we're after.
 
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Interestingly, Totentanz recommended I do back to back cycles of 10s and 5s and PRs, up to 3 cycles, and only SD when I feel burned out or I complete all 3 cycles.
Kind of like finding the sweet spot that you mentioned Mikeynov.
 
Interestingly, Totentanz recommended I do back to back cycles of 10s and 5s and PRs, up to 3 cycles, and only SD when I feel burned out or I complete all 3 cycles.
Kind of like finding the sweet spot that you mentioned Mikeynov.

That is a very interesting idea. I've actually been having similar ideas lately. I think proactively deloading at the end of every HST cycle may have merit (particularly for the old and beat up), but I think there's also a pretty strong logic to pushing strength as long as it lasts, and SD-ing only when the gains stop. Recycling back through moderate/heavy weights is a potentially great idea imo, I was considering doing something similar.
 
Recycling back through moderate/heavy weights is a potentially great idea imo, I was considering doing something similar.

That's how I train. The last time I had a legitimate 'do nothing at all' SD was about 12months ago. Deloading/recycling is working v.well for me.
 
That's how I train. The last time I had a legitimate 'do nothing at all' SD was about 12months ago. Deloading/recycling is working v.well for me.

Pretty cool. My plan was basically to do a "mini-SD" at the end of a progression. E.g. at the end of 5's, I'd skip a session each for upper/lower body such that I'm getting ~one week off between sessions. This would be comparable to skipping 1-2 sessions in a 3 days per week type HST setup. E.g. if my final two sessions were an upper session on Thursday and lower on Friday, I'd recycle the weights starting again the following Thursday/Friday. Not so long to harm strength, but long enough to help bleed off any residual fatigue, maybe push RBE slightly in the right direction.

I'd save the "big" SD (10+ days off) after I felt I was good and truly stalled, then.
 
Anecdotal but I've had better progress from what I've told sci to do than I did when I religiously SD'd after every cycle. I don't believe SD is all about actual detraining, I think there are other things going on, as evidenced in the stuff that Bryan and Dan posted way back in the day. I know I quote the whole satellite cells thing after 9 days off factoid, but that's because it was there in the study. I suspect that there is more going on than we know of but since there haven't been adequate studies yet, it remains just a suspicion. Regardless, I know that when I notice progress slowing and I take 9 days off, things start to progress nicely again once returning to training. It seems as though taking that 9 day break increases your growth potential, essentially raising the ceiling on how far you can go before you plateau. Clearly this has limits due to the natural limits of the body.
However... I do not like taking more than 9 days off and I do not recommend it to anyone that I make programs for, ever. Whenever I've taken extended time off, it seems like strength starts to disappear quickly after I exceed the 9 days off. Of course the strength returns after a couple weeks but that is a couple weeks getting back to where I was before I took the time off. Whereas when I stick with 9 days off, there is little loss of strength which allows progress to resume faster because my strength and conditioning seems to return after only a session or two.

Like I said, this is all just based on my experience and observations, so obviously I have no proof of this.
 
Anecdotal but I've had better progress from what I've told sci to do than I did when I religiously SD'd after every cycle. I don't believe SD is all about actual detraining, I think there are other things going on, as evidenced in the stuff that Bryan and Dan posted way back in the day. I know I quote the whole satellite cells thing after 9 days off factoid, but that's because it was there in the study. I suspect that there is more going on than we know of but since there haven't been adequate studies yet, it remains just a suspicion. Regardless, I know that when I notice progress slowing and I take 9 days off, things start to progress nicely again once returning to training. It seems as though taking that 9 day break increases your growth potential, essentially raising the ceiling on how far you can go before you plateau. Clearly this has limits due to the natural limits of the body.
However... I do not like taking more than 9 days off and I do not recommend it to anyone that I make programs for, ever. Whenever I've taken extended time off, it seems like strength starts to disappear quickly after I exceed the 9 days off. Of course the strength returns after a couple weeks but that is a couple weeks getting back to where I was before I took the time off. Whereas when I stick with 9 days off, there is little loss of strength which allows progress to resume faster because my strength and conditioning seems to return after only a session or two.

Like I said, this is all just based on my experience and observations, so obviously I have no proof of this.

This is good stuff, sir, your thoughts are appreciated and influencing my own thoughts on the subject.
 
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To that individual, anecdotal experience is better than all the peer reviewed studies on that specific point stacked together. To me. the only thing of importance is what works for me. 90% of the time it follows major studies but not all the time. This particular study being discussed was so small and flawed I would consider it useless from the standpoint of HST except to point out that more is not necessarily better.
 
Knowing myself and my recovery ability, I will most likely not make it 3 cycles. I will try for 2 cycles back to back, 12 weeks. Then SD for 9 days, however, after just 1 cycle, if I am burned out after hitting PRs for 2weeks, I will just SD every cycle as per vanilla HST.
I just found it I interesting that skipping an SD period here and there, can be fine for some people. Especially when going for strength gains.
 
Knowing myself and my recovery ability, I will most likely not make it 3 cycles. I will try for 2 cycles back to back, 12 weeks. Then SD for 9 days, however, after just 1 cycle, if I am burned out after hitting PRs for 2weeks, I will just SD every cycle as per vanilla HST.
I just found it I interesting that skipping an SD period here and there, can be fine for some people. Especially when going for strength gains.

I think something to consider is my idea of a "mini-deload" or even what DC does in DC training, skipping a training session at least ~once a month (he actually encourages this to stay fresh). Sort of like an autoregulated form of deloading, since what we really need a good part of the time is just to let the fatigue we've built up dissipate, and this really doesn't take THAT long, probably not longer than a half week to week. For example, something like taking ~5-7 days off between your HST cycles, so not a "true" SD, or long enough to negatively affect strength, but enough to let the fatigue blow off and build up a bit of hunger to train again. You could save longer SD's (9+ days) for true stagnation, then.
 
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