Newest scientific support for Strategic Deconditioning

[Bryan Haycock]

1. J Appl Physiol. 2013 Jan 31. [Epub ahead of print]

mTOR signaling response to resistance exercise is altered by chronic resistance
training and detraining in skeletal muscle.

Ogasawara R, Kobayashi K, Tsutaki A, Lee K, Abe T, Fujita S, Nakazato K, Ishii N.

1Ritsumeikan University.

Resistance training-induced muscle anabolism and subsequent hypertrophy occur
most rapidly during the early phase of training and become progressively slower
over time. Currently, little is known about the intracellular signaling
mechanisms underlying changes in the sensitivity of muscles to training stimuli.
We investigated the changes in the exercise-induced phosphorylation of
hypertrophic signaling proteins during chronic resistance training and subsequent
detraining. Male rats were divided into 4 groups: 1 bout (1B), 12 bouts (12B), 18
bouts (18B), and detraining (DT). In the DT group, rats were subjected to 12
exercise sessions, detrained for 12 days, and then were subjected to 1 exercise
session before being sacrificed. Isometric training consisted of maximum
isometric contraction was produced by percutaneous electrical stimulation of the
gastrocnemius muscle every other day. Muscles were removed 24 h after the final
exercise session. Levels of total and phosphorylated p70S6K, 4E-BP1, rpS6, and
p90RSK levels were measured, and phosphorylation of p70S6K, rpS6, and p90RSK was
elevated in the 1B group compared to control muscle (CON) after acute resistance
exercise, while repeated bouts of exercise suppressed those phosphorylation in
both 12B and 18B groups. Interestingly, these phosphorylation levels were
restored following 12 days of detraining in the DT group. On the contrary,
phosphorylation of 4E-BP1 was not altered with chronic training and detraining,
indicating that with chronic resistance training, anabolic signaling becomes less
sensitive to resistance exercise stimuli, but is restored after a short detraining period.

This study was performed on animals, but we see it in humans as well. Clearly, strategic deconditioning isn't going to make it "like the first time" but it will be one more thing you can do to encourage continued progress.

 

[Old and Grey]

1. J Appl Physiol. 2013 Jan 31. [Epub ahead of print]

In the DT group, rats were subjected to 12 exercise sessions, detrained for 12 days, and then were subjected to 1 exercise session before being sacrificed.

This study was performed on animals, but we see it in humans as well. Clearly, strategic deconditioning isn't going to make it "like the first time" but it will be one more thing you can do to encourage continued progress.

I never did get the "sacrifice" part right.

 

[Jester]

I always feel like SD is sort of a '4 steps forward, 1 step backwards' approach. Rather than the 'never say time off' approach of other lifting routines, which means '1 step nowhere, all the time'. The longer you SD, the better your gains will be (approaching limits ofc).

About 3-4yrs ago I took 8 or so months away from lifting. Random exposure to loads of course (moving house, random tomfoolery on the monkey bars etc ), I probably lost a little LBM but nothing more than a kg or two I would think. When I came back my strength and size gains were phenomenal. I did it again shortly after, probably taking 2 months off and again, substantial gains over the following 4-5months.

To randomly try and and quantify it, if a cycle let you put say, 5 kg's of muscle, you might lose up to 1-1.5kgs with a really good SD (2+ weeks), then next time you go out and put on another 5 or 6 kg's and SD, lose a little bit, rinse and repeat. Obviously there's a physiological limit, but SD is just an amazing way to remove the 'resistance' that makes up part of the bodies' response to load exposure. It 'forgets' that it has been exposed to 150kg squat, then forgets 140, 130, 120 etc and you can start gaining from those loads again, without having to give up everything you already worked to get.

Love it.



*The only negative I can figure out for SD, is that you can't satisfy the habitual need and endorphin rush that comes from exercising, and exercising with weights especially. I suppose if you over-indulge in the food during that period you might have to put in some extra dieting later as well.

 

[Old and Grey]

Bryan, has anyone ever studied something like this:

Double train upper body the first week with no lower body training. In the second week, do not train the upper body at all but double train the lower body. Repeat, repeat, etc. No total body SD taken.

By double train, I mean do double your 'normal' volume and frequency.

Just curious.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

No one has studied that protocol specifically, the the principle of SD would work even while training other body parts.

 

[asteve5]

"This study was performed on animals, but we see it in humans as well."

Which papers are you referring to here?

I'm aware of the 3 week detraining study done recently. But are there any other relevant human studies that have been conducted?

 

[asteve5]

Also, is RBE specific to muscle groups being used - I've read atleast one study where the RBE is a systematic occurrence protecting against novel training stimulus(new moves-theoretically new musculature) - if this is muscle specific is the question - concerning the post above about upper/lower splits using SD.

 

[CDB]

I think some of the suggestions I've seen here and elsewhere are over complicating a simple issue. Face it, you need to take a week or two off every now and then. I realize it's a major sacrifice, but you should really just do it.

 

[HST_Rihad]

Does simple weight back-cycling to 75-80% of max (i.e., HST without SD) count as detraining for 95-100% loads?

 

[Jester]

Does simple weight back-cycling to 75-80% of max (i.e., HST without SD) count as detraining for 95-100% loads?

Yup, it's called de-loading as opposed to de-conditioning.

 

[mikeynov]

Does simple weight back-cycling to 75-80% of max (i.e., HST without SD) count as detraining for 95-100% loads?

In a sense, yes, but if the primary stimulus that induces hypertrophy is mechanical in nature (which it seems to be based on my admittedly limited understanding), it does beg the question of how/why lower weights are going to induce hypertrophy minus an actual SD (time completely off). There is probably a reasonable argument that the metabolic side of the equation might be relatively "detrained," so to speak, i.e. you're not used to the metabolic byproducts of fatigue, and these may (re)influence hypertrophy once you drop down to lighter weight and higher reps. The mechanical side, though, seems tougher to rationalize in terms of skipping SD's and just deloading.

 

[HST_Rihad]

@mikeynov, AFAIK, for metabolic work, higher rep drop sets are recommended even during 5's.

Some people simply deload back to 15s and do no SD. True, those workouts are probably useless right away in terms of muscle growth, but they still accomplish what they're meant for (healing up tendons w/ lactate), and by the time one gets to 10s, sufficient deconditioning of muscles would already be achieved? Or not?

 

[Jester]

The higher rep sets need not be drop sets (in terms of timing, obviously the load is ballpark 15RM).

The tendon effect of 15s is highly debated, and it's actually heavy loads that create stronger connective tissue (obviously too heavy is a nice way to tear connective tissue), but it's also a mental and neural break from the 5s. Remember it's your CNS that needs to deload/decondition as well as your muscles. Psychological moderation is important, and if you hit over-training//fatigue during the 5s/end of heavies, going to 15s (skipping SD) is going to let you recover from the heavy loads as well.

You likely won't be deconditioned for the first week of 10s (zig-zags slightly with last week of 10s for some ppl, depending on the exercise) but you'll definitely be set for the 5s & heavies.

 

[HST_Rihad]

The higher rep sets need not be drop sets (in terms of timing, obviously the load is ballpark 15RM).

Here's a study showing that higher rep metabolic work in combination with lower rep work (i.e. drop sets during 5's) is more efficient for growth than 5's alone. Obviously higher rep work isn't that much useful alone when already working at lower reps and muscle is already adapted to that load.

The tendon effect of 15s is highly debated, and it's actually heavy loads that create stronger connective tissue (obviously too heavy is a nice way to tear connective tissue), but it's also a mental and neural break from the 5s. Remember it's your CNS that needs to deload/decondition as well as your muscles. Psychological moderation is important, and if you hit over-training//fatigue during the 5s/end of heavies, going to 15s (skipping SD) is going to let you recover from the heavy loads as well.

You likely won't be deconditioned for the first week of 10s (zig-zags slightly with last week of 10s for some ppl, depending on the exercise) but you'll definitely be set for the 5s & heavies.

This all begs the question what good SD is for, only for making muscles sensitive to lower 10's again? Why not simply deload to 15's and let the time training with lower load make muscles sensitive to 10s again? I'm sure Bryan has had something more than that in mind.

 

[Jester]

Here's a study showing that higher rep metabolic work in combination with lower rep work (i.e. drop sets during 5's) is more efficient for growth than 5's alone. Obviously higher rep work isn't that much useful alone when already working at lower reps and muscle is already adapted to that load.

I never questioned higher rep work. I'm saying it needn't be drop sets. Do a quick search, you'll find me recommending high rep work during the 5's a lot.

This all begs the question what good SD is for, only for making muscles sensitive to lower 10's again? Why not simply deload to 15's and let the time training with lower load make muscles sensitive to 10s again? I'm sure Bryan has had something more than that in mind.

Not really sure what Bryan's thoughts have to do w/validity of deconditioning or deloading ... ? It either works or it doesn't. Studies would indicate that the former does, and that the latter is merely a moderated function of the former.

W/regard to your hypothetical; many do train this way, Lyle, in fact recommends it. Furthermore, hypertrophy training w/10s is generally not the way to achieve results.

The trade off is obvious: time not spent in the gym (con, to many) vs more effective but shorter bout of training in theory (pro).

 

[HST_Rihad]

I never questioned higher rep work. I'm saying it needn't be drop sets. Do a quick search, you'll find me recommending high rep work during the 5's a lot.

I'll dare to ask again: how useful is higher rep work for muscle gains during 5's if it isn't done in drop sets, apart from burning some extra calories? No one would be doing drop sets then, if higher rep work done after rest were of equivalent value during 5's.

Not really sure what Bryan's thoughts have to do w/validity of deconditioning or deloading ... ? It either works or it doesn't. Studies would indicate that the former does, and that the latter is merely a moderated function of the former.

Nah, I meant there may be something extra useful in complete detraining to 1-5% of 1RM (our everyday actions) that no amount of simple deloading to 75%-ish would achieve. Otherwise this:

W/regard to your hypothetical; many do train this way, Lyle, in fact recommends it. Furthermore, hypertrophy training w/10s is generally not the way to achieve results.

Lyle doesn't seem to share Bryan's opinion on effectiveness of SD, so he's a lost cause

makes some sense.

 

[Jester]

Higher rep work doesn't have to be in drop sets. It's just as effective if it's done in post-working load sets.



I wouldn't be so ignorant re: Lyle. He's one of the best trainers in the world. The principle of SD is the same as that of deloading. The difference is in degree of execution. If you still think the 15s and 10s serve a hypertrophic, psychological, neural or connective-strength purpose, then by all means SD. If you don't, then just deload (or don't deload at all and use minor zig-zag, caffeine, creatine, and diet to continue until genetic limit - which won't happen for 15-20yrs).

 

[HST_Rihad]

Higher rep work doesn't have to be in drop sets. It's just as effective if it's done in post-working load sets.

That's all nice & good, but once again, it just seems to be contrary to HST principles, because when working on 5's, the higher rep load isn't enough to be effective (except when in drop sets).

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Deloading is not equivalent to a complete discontinuation of load stress and metabolic stress. Someone earlier mentioned the repeated bout effect (RBE). Deloading will maintain the RBE, especially with loads as high as 75-80% 1RM. It could be you were thinking more 75-80% 10RM or 5RM or whatever, nevertheless, the stimulus is still sufficient to maintain the "trained" condition.

Again, I will remind everyone that this is not black and white. If you cut your loads in half, it is absolutely true that some deconditioning will occur if you stay there long enough. Complete SD is a stronger stimulus, and should allow more changes within the same amount of time.

New Topic: From occlusion data, we see confirmation of the faciliatory (is that a word?) role of metabolic stress on hypertrophy. Occlusion with very light loads (and high frequency) will activate the same anabolic signaling pathways as high mechanical load. Think of the two stimuli as two circles with significant overlap. The higher rep sets during the 5s provides this metabolic stress that we want to encourage growth. It doesn't matter if it is a drop set or a completely separate high rep set(s); as long as you create some metabolic pain deep in the tissue, you will accomplish the goal.

 

[HST_Rihad]

Deloading is not equivalent to a complete discontinuation of load stress and metabolic stress. Someone earlier mentioned the repeated bout effect (RBE). Deloading will maintain the RBE, especially with loads as high as 75-80% 1RM. It could be you were thinking more 75-80% 10RM or 5RM or whatever, nevertheless, the stimulus is still sufficient to maintain the "trained" condition.

Yes, I was thinking 75% of 10RM.

Again, I will remind everyone that this is not black and white. If you cut your loads in half, it is absolutely true that some deconditioning will occur if you stay there long enough. Complete SD is a stronger stimulus, and should allow more changes within the same amount of time.

Thanks. I win, AlexAustralia

New Topic: From occlusion data, we see confirmation of the faciliatory (is that a word?) role of metabolic stress on hypertrophy. Occlusion with very light loads (and high frequency) will activate the same anabolic signaling pathways as high mechanical load. Think of the two stimuli as two circles with significant overlap. The higher rep sets during the 5s provides this metabolic stress that we want to encourage growth. It doesn't matter if it is a drop set or a completely separate high rep set(s); as long as you create some metabolic pain deep in the tissue, you will accomplish the goal.

OK, thanks, this time you win, AlexAustralia, so it's a draw Of course I'm for separate higher rep sets, I just thought there is some adaptation to lighter loads going on so they wouldn't be useful. Probably adaptation to metabolic stress (RBE) doesn't come that quickly?