I
Of course, the article typically refers to athletes as those people who spend a lot of time running, swimming or in the saddle (ie. aerobic activities/metabolic conditioning) rather than strength/power athletes. They are not (usually) trying to grow muscle and are not training their muscles at high intensity (% 1RM).
This sentence struck me as interesting as it is not in line with the thought that muscles can continue to grow even in the event of constant loading:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">During exercise, muscles stop the biochemical reactions used to maintain themselves such as replacing and resynthesizing the proteins needed for day to day activities. It’s not that exercise is damaging your muscles; it’s that they halt the maintenance process until exercise is over.</div>
Of course, constant loading does not necessarily imply constant work. If someone was to wear a heavy rucksack all day long then they would still be able to rest their leg muscles any time they sat down or stood still, effectively transferring the load to their skeletal components.
I can quite believe that when working hard, muscle tissue is in a different modus operandi to when it is at rest. For strength sports such as weight lifting and weight training there is actually plenty of rest time during a workout, so biochemical repair and maintenance within a muscle could be occurring during a workout. However, if it were the case that certain levels of hormones in the body that were elevated during exercise also shut down the repair mechanisms, then that would be a different matter. I haven't read about this happening though.
This sentence struck me as interesting as it is not in line with the thought that muscles can continue to grow even in the event of constant loading:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">During exercise, muscles stop the biochemical reactions used to maintain themselves such as replacing and resynthesizing the proteins needed for day to day activities. It’s not that exercise is damaging your muscles; it’s that they halt the maintenance process until exercise is over.</div>
Of course, constant loading does not necessarily imply constant work. If someone was to wear a heavy rucksack all day long then they would still be able to rest their leg muscles any time they sat down or stood still, effectively transferring the load to their skeletal components.
I can quite believe that when working hard, muscle tissue is in a different modus operandi to when it is at rest. For strength sports such as weight lifting and weight training there is actually plenty of rest time during a workout, so biochemical repair and maintenance within a muscle could be occurring during a workout. However, if it were the case that certain levels of hormones in the body that were elevated during exercise also shut down the repair mechanisms, then that would be a different matter. I haven't read about this happening though.
Quad: But the point of a pre-workout shake is to increase the availability of aminos in the blood for use during training. As far as I am aware there are studies showing increased uptake of aminos by muscle tissue during weight training. That's not what was stated in the article.
9to5lifter
New Member
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad: But the point of a pre-workout shake is to increase the availability of aminos in the blood for use during training. As far as I am aware there are studies showing increased uptake of aminos by muscle tissue during weight training. That's not what was stated in the article.</div>
Absolutely agree with Lol. This is the first time I've read something like this.
Absolutely agree with Lol. This is the first time I've read something like this.
I do too, but consider what we've been fed for so long. We've just recently found out (at least in here) about aminos being more important, nutrient timing much less so, and as far as I know, catabolism is still a threat in a long workout. I thought that was due to the hormonal changes from the workouts, and nitrogen.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Although studies by Dr. Jeukendrup and several others have shown that consuming protein after exercise speeds up muscle protein synthesis, no one has shown that that translates into improved performance.</div>
asker needs to read a wider range of papers, rather than endurance weenie work
asker needs to read a wider range of papers, rather than endurance weenie work
<div>
(Lol @ Jun. 06 2008,7:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad: But the point of a pre-workout shake is to increase the availability of aminos in the blood for use during training. As far as I am aware there are studies showing increased uptake of aminos by muscle tissue during weight training. That's not what was stated in the article.</div>
Not exactly, there is still a delay of sorts immediately post training which picks back up after ATP replenishment has occured. This stall of synthesis rate lasts about 30 min to an hour and varies wildly based on many factors.
For instance Eccentric vs concentric contraction show that PS elevation occurs faster after eccentric which would lead to a larger net depostion but what hasn't been shown is whether or not then when using concentric if the temporal pattern increases because they normally only measure for a short time.
Also what still has to be researched more than it has is what protein fractions are turning over. It appears to me that the largest muscle specific proteins that are turning immediately post workout, the ones that most measure, are not contractile in nature and may be more related to metabolic, enzymatic, or others.
For instance interstitial measurements of 3MH show us that actin and myosin are not degraded during or immediately post work out. This would stand to reason since these contractile proteins are very slow to turnover (days). So it would be nice if some more research actually began to look passed the 48 hour window to see what is occuring in the longer term.
(Lol @ Jun. 06 2008,7:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad: But the point of a pre-workout shake is to increase the availability of aminos in the blood for use during training. As far as I am aware there are studies showing increased uptake of aminos by muscle tissue during weight training. That's not what was stated in the article.</div>
Not exactly, there is still a delay of sorts immediately post training which picks back up after ATP replenishment has occured. This stall of synthesis rate lasts about 30 min to an hour and varies wildly based on many factors.
For instance Eccentric vs concentric contraction show that PS elevation occurs faster after eccentric which would lead to a larger net depostion but what hasn't been shown is whether or not then when using concentric if the temporal pattern increases because they normally only measure for a short time.
Also what still has to be researched more than it has is what protein fractions are turning over. It appears to me that the largest muscle specific proteins that are turning immediately post workout, the ones that most measure, are not contractile in nature and may be more related to metabolic, enzymatic, or others.
For instance interstitial measurements of 3MH show us that actin and myosin are not degraded during or immediately post work out. This would stand to reason since these contractile proteins are very slow to turnover (days). So it would be nice if some more research actually began to look passed the 48 hour window to see what is occuring in the longer term.
I see Dan. So really, we are consuming pre-workout shakes to take advantage of amino uptake immediately after we finish a workout? Taking a protein shake immediately following a training bout, rather than before, would mean that the boost in aminos would not be available for PS until time for digestion had occurred.
But, say we work our legs at the start of the workout. By the time we finish the rest of our routine our legs haven't been doing much for about 40 mins or so. Would our legs not be benefiting from the extra aminos from the pre-wo shake during the time that we are training our other body parts? Or, are there hormonal responses during training that shut down PS until complete cessation of exercise has occurred?
But, say we work our legs at the start of the workout. By the time we finish the rest of our routine our legs haven't been doing much for about 40 mins or so. Would our legs not be benefiting from the extra aminos from the pre-wo shake during the time that we are training our other body parts? Or, are there hormonal responses during training that shut down PS until complete cessation of exercise has occurred?
<div>
(Lol @ Jun. 07 2008,12:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see Dan. So really, we are consuming pre-workout shakes to take advantage of amino uptake immediately after we finish a workout? Taking a protein shake immediately following a training bout, rather than before, would mean that the boost in aminos would not be available for PS until time for digestion had occurred.
But, say we work our legs at the start of the workout. By the time we finish the rest of our routine our legs haven't been doing much for about 40 mins or so. Would our legs not be benefiting from the extra aminos from the pre-wo shake during the time that we are training our other body parts? Or, are there hormonal responses during training that shut down PS until complete cessation of exercise has occurred?</div>
here
(Lol @ Jun. 07 2008,12:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see Dan. So really, we are consuming pre-workout shakes to take advantage of amino uptake immediately after we finish a workout? Taking a protein shake immediately following a training bout, rather than before, would mean that the boost in aminos would not be available for PS until time for digestion had occurred.
But, say we work our legs at the start of the workout. By the time we finish the rest of our routine our legs haven't been doing much for about 40 mins or so. Would our legs not be benefiting from the extra aminos from the pre-wo shake during the time that we are training our other body parts? Or, are there hormonal responses during training that shut down PS until complete cessation of exercise has occurred?</div>
here
I
imported_drpierredebs
Guest
<div>
(Aaron_F @ Jun. 07 2008,5:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">endurance weenie work</div>
what should this mean?
(Aaron_F @ Jun. 07 2008,5:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">endurance weenie work</div>
what should this mean?
<div>
(drpierredebs @ Jun. 09 2008,12:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Jun. 07 2008,5:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">endurance weenie work</div>
what should this mean?</div>
It means Asker is an endurance weenie
(drpierredebs @ Jun. 09 2008,12:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Jun. 07 2008,5:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">endurance weenie work</div>
what should this mean?</div>
It means Asker is an endurance weenie
<div>
(Dan Moore @ Jun. 09 2008,6:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So as you can see.
If using an EAA w/carbs pre would be better but if using whey the total AUC isn't much different between pre or post.
IMO I prefer pre and post</div>
The whey before and after suffered from power issues, iirc
But robert wolfe presents it like this, which was slightly more favourable to pre
(Dan Moore @ Jun. 09 2008,6:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So as you can see.
If using an EAA w/carbs pre would be better but if using whey the total AUC isn't much different between pre or post.
IMO I prefer pre and post</div>
The whey before and after suffered from power issues, iirc
But robert wolfe presents it like this, which was slightly more favourable to pre
I
imported_drpierredebs
Guest
How many of you, after doing all the pubmed searches and incorporating everything you have read about pre-post, during , etc... with AA´s and whey and casein, etc.. have noticed a a real effect on your strength and size?
I am stronger and bigger than when I started eating around training, but that was before pubmed was around...
EDIT
I should add, I train first thing in the morning, which is where most of the research data is most applicable. For me, training with something in my belly, something light cos I don't want to puke, is good. Which is where a carb and protein beverage comes in. Performance is far better with the stuff, than without.
EDIT
I should add, I train first thing in the morning, which is where most of the research data is most applicable. For me, training with something in my belly, something light cos I don't want to puke, is good. Which is where a carb and protein beverage comes in. Performance is far better with the stuff, than without.
TunnelRat
Active Member
<div>
(Aaron_F @ Jun. 09 2008,2:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am stronger and bigger than when I started eating around training</div>
I've taken a page from the IF discussions: for the past few months, I've been trying get most of my eating done around the time that I work out. I've especially made it a point to have a whey protein shake shortly before the workout and another immediately after.
I ran Dan's Max-Stim program through Phase I before I had to stop (I got the plague that was going around...). I gained five pounds over a period just a bit longer than a month, and actually lowered my body fat percentage (by a statistically insignificant amount).
(Aaron_F @ Jun. 09 2008,2:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am stronger and bigger than when I started eating around training</div>
I've taken a page from the IF discussions: for the past few months, I've been trying get most of my eating done around the time that I work out. I've especially made it a point to have a whey protein shake shortly before the workout and another immediately after.
I ran Dan's Max-Stim program through Phase I before I had to stop (I got the plague that was going around...). I gained five pounds over a period just a bit longer than a month, and actually lowered my body fat percentage (by a statistically insignificant amount).