PERFECT postworkout drink!

Discussion in 'Anything and Everything about dietary supplements' started by _Simon_, Jul 12, 2007.

  1. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Omg, I hope you aren't going to start in with the "you must eat 16 times a day or you'll gain all fat" bullcrap, because I assure you, we've all seen the studies here and know that meal frequency is a crock.

    Please don't post discussion boards as a reference to back up your claims, bro. You need some solid studies. May I suggest pubmed?

    Oh wait, you'd better not, because that will totally disprove your case. Oops.
     
  2. <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh wait, you'd better not, because that will totally disprove your case. Oops. </div>

    The success guys are getting from the IF protocol disproves the &quot;frequent small meals&quot; dogma.
     
  3. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Just to elaborate: optimizing your gains is all about how many calories you eat and how you train. Pick a non-retarded training approach, like HST. Then make sure you are eating enough calories to gain about a pound a week. More than that is probably going to mean a decent amount of at gain. Less than that is probably going to mean you are cutting into possible muscle gains.
    That's about all you can do to optimize your gains, aside from taking steroids. Tweaking your diet and doing all this crazy stuff is not going to significantly effect partitioning. Weight lifting is mainly what is going to effect partitioning anyway.

    Fretting about when you eat something and all that is just dumb and is only going to cause you more worry than it is worth. Refer to my first post on this matter.

    I'll explain this in rather simple terms.
    Do you REALLY think that your stomach will be empty when you take in your post-workout shake? If you do, then something in wrong.
    Okay, so we now have established that food will be in your stomach when you are taking in your post-workout shake. Right? Still with me? So... you take in your post-workout shake. It is now mixing with what is already in your belly.
    Care to take a wild guess as to what is probably in your belly? You got it, protein and fats, probably some carbs too. Fat digests the slowest, so definitely some fat, unless you are one of those weirdos who eat no fat in your diet.

    You've just added food to food. So regardless of what ratios of what is in your post-workout shake, the ratio is going to be totally different now that it is in your body and mixing with what you ate before.

    Also, if you really need me to post the studies about meal frequency as well, I can track them down real quick. They are all posted repeatedly on this site, so using the search function should turn them all up.
     
  4. bgates1654

    bgates1654 New Member

    <div>
    (the_dark_master @ Jul. 12 2007,07:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chocolate milk, and if you have a problem with that; go tell Lyle  [​IMG]</div>
    QFT!
     
  5. javacody

    javacody New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fat digests the slowest, so definitely some fat, unless you are one of those weirdos who eat no fat in your diet.
    </div>

    I'll be Richard Simmons is on a low fat diet. [​IMG]

    My post workout shake is casein. It is not optimal for gaining muscle as a post workout shake, according to most folks, but because I eat an hour or so before I workout, I figure I got protein in my gut anyway. I'm also on a massive fat-burning diet stretch, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that, it depends. When I'm not trying to burn fat, I will probably switch back to whey.

    _Simon_, I highly recommend you vist the bodyrecomposition.com forums. Seriously, don't waste another second. Go and spend a week there just reading posts. There are links to tons of studies as well.

    I'd also highly recommend against asking ANY questions there until you've read many, many, many posts. You will be much better for it.

    Also, do yourself a major favor and DO NOT mention Berardi there, ever. Not until you've been there a while. You will see what I mean, very quickly.

    Morgoth sent me there a month or so back, thank God.
     
  6. chalky212

    chalky212 New Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ Jul. 13 2007,21:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Omg, I hope you aren't going to start in with the &quot;you must eat 16 times a day or you'll gain all fat&quot; bullcrap, because I assure you, we've all seen the studies here and know that meal frequency is a crock.

    Please don't post discussion boards as a reference to back up your claims, bro. You need some solid studies. May I suggest pubmed?

    Oh wait, you'd better not, because that will totally disprove your case. Oops.</div>
    It was an actual study done....but someone actually posted it on the discussion board..
     
  7. javacody

    javacody New Member

    vdk_au, you are talking about one study. There are probably studies showing that eating your own excrement will build muscle.

    Go to bodyrecomposition.com and search for intermittant fasting. Nothing is written in stone except that you eventually must eat or you will die.
     
  8. chalky212

    chalky212 New Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ Jul. 13 2007,21:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to elaborate: optimizing your gains is all about how many calories you eat and how you train. Pick a non-retarded training approach, like HST. Then make sure you are eating enough calories to gain about a pound a week. More than that is probably going to mean a decent amount of at gain. Less than that is probably going to mean you are cutting into possible muscle gains.
    That's about all you can do to optimize your gains, aside from taking steroids. Tweaking your diet and doing all this crazy stuff is not going to significantly effect partitioning. Weight lifting is mainly what is going to effect partitioning anyway.

    Fretting about when you eat something and all that is just dumb and is only going to cause you more worry than it is worth. Refer to my first post on this matter.

    I'll explain this in rather simple terms.
    Do you REALLY think that your stomach will be empty when you take in your post-workout shake? If you do, then something in wrong.
    Okay, so we now have established that food will be in your stomach when you are taking in your post-workout shake. Right? Still with me? So... you take in your post-workout shake. It is now mixing with what is already in your belly.
    Care to take a wild guess as to what is probably in your belly? You got it, protein and fats, probably some carbs too. Fat digests the slowest, so definitely some fat, unless you are one of those weirdos who eat no fat in your diet.

    You've just added food to food. So regardless of what ratios of what is in your post-workout shake, the ratio is going to be totally different now that it is in your body and mixing with what you ate before.

    Also, if you really need me to post the studies about meal frequency as well, I can track them down real quick. They are all posted repeatedly on this site, so using the search function should turn them all up.</div>
    If it were all about just how many calories you consume, why not just eat McDonalds, KFC, snicker bars all day? Making sure you gain a pound a week does not mean crap all. If the majority of this weight is fat, what's the use of it? And you were saying if you're gaining less, than you're probably &quot;cutting into possible muscle gains&quot;. You do realise that everyone grows at a different rate. Just because one person isn't gaining a 1lb a week, it doesn't mean they are not making the most of the gains.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Omg, I hope you aren't going to start in with the &quot;you must eat 16 times a day or you'll gain all fat&quot; bullcrap, because I assure you, we've all seen the studies here and know that meal frequency is a crock.</div>

    So are you saying there's no difference b/w eating 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 meals a day, as long as you are consuming enough calories in a day? Why not do me a favour, and consume 2 meals a day (making sure you consume your required calorie intake), and come back to me, and tell me how it's worked for you. Oh whoops, that might just contradict what you said, better not do it!

    Anyways, I thought this site would actually be a bit more friendlier. I guess I did start off a bit rough, but there was no need for the &quot;sarcasm&quot;. I guess this we'll be the end of me here so save your fingers and don't bother to reply! laters!
     
  9. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Please don't quote Berardi as your reference.

    Postworkout: Do you REALLY think that fats/carbs in this are going to matter?

    Okay, how about this: Do you REALLY think that your stomach is going to be empty postworkout or preworkout for that matter? Sure, if you are working out after you just got up, but that's about it.

    The moral of the story is: Just freaking get some protein and stuff after your workout. It isn't going to matter as much as you think, as long as you get some protein preworkout. I ALWAYS put fats in my post AND PRE shakes, and I haven't like, died or anything. Also, I keep getting bigger and stronger as time goes on, so it must be working.
    I don't know why people obsess so much over this, especially when they are still at the point where doing/eating pretty much anything will illicit growth. No wonder why the bro's always say &quot;Just shutup and lift!&quot; but I think we should change it to &quot;Just shutup and EAT!&quot;

    Seriously, bro.</div>

    okay, i seriously feel Totentanz that you've come off a little aggressive here, that wasn't necessary.
    i NEVER said that you stomach would be EMPTY before or after a workout, dunno where that came from. i realise that there is food in the stomach before and after still, i'm just saying in terms of OPTIMAL performance and growth that high GI carbs DO work. it's been proven. if i am wrong, advise me to the correct info, not call my 'fretting' dumb.

    javacody, thank you for actually BEING understanding and so helpful without snapping my head off. yeah, that site is amazing i've browsed it before and i definitely plan to visit it heaps.

    totentanz i'd just like to note that we are people, who are trying to be the best we can be, and learn everything we can. i remember how I was when i first started in all this, i had no clue. luckily no one was rude to me in any way, and guided me in a friendly way. i'm sure you were the same, so i'd really appreciate it if you could try and understand that we are all humans trying to share knowledge and help. we all deserve some respect, towards vdk_au, me and everyone.

    ANYWAYS!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

    etothepii... i'm curious, i haven't heard of the IF protocol, what is it???
    OH!!! intermittent fasting or something, is that right? ;) just remembered...

    thanks for all your help guys!
     
  10. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (vdk_au @ Jul. 14 2007,14:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's like those quotes, &quot;No Pain No Gain&quot;, as much as they sound good, it's far from the truth. I'm sure if you just &quot;shup-up and ate&quot; without knowing any of the techniques used such as &quot;eat 4-6 meals a day&quot;, etc, I doubt you have made the same gains, as eating say &quot;2-3 meals a day, stuffying youself till you're full&quot;, etc.</div>
    You're funny




    hahaha
     
  11. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    while I am drunk

    THE EFFECT OF MEAL FREQUENCY ON BODY COMPOSITION DURING 12-WEEKS OF STRENGTH TRAINING
    Hansen Øyvind1, Fostervold Mathisen Therese2, Raastad
    Truls 2
    (Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Oslo1,
    Norwegian School of Sport Sciences2, Norway)

    Human trials on the effect of meal frequency on body composition are scarce. Short-term studies show increased rate of protein synthesis immediately after intake of amino acids [1], and frequent meals are shown to aid in the preservation of lean body mass when dieting [2]. Consequently it could be hypothesised that in response to strength training, more frequent meals will give larger muscle mass accumulation and lower fat mass (FM) than fewer meals. The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of 3 vs. 6meals per day on changes in body composition in young men and women performing strength training over 12 weeks. Men (n=33) and women (n=15) aged 21 to 35 with at least one year of previous strength training experience were randomly assigned to either a 6 meals a day group or a 3 meals a day group. The prescribed total dietary intake in both groups was equal and calculated to give a positive energy balance of approximately 1200 KJ/day, a protein intake of 1.5-1.7 g/kg/day and a carbohydrate intake of 5-7 g/kg/day. During the training period the dietary intake was controlled by repeated 24-hours recalls. All participants performed the same strength training program, training four times per week, giving each muscle group one heavy session and one light session per week. In the heavy sessions, training intensity varied between 10 and 3 RM sets, and 3-6 sets were performed in each exercise. Determination of body composition was performed with DEXA at the beginning of and immediately after the training period. A total of 16 men and 11 women completed the project. After multiple regression analysis the 3 meal group had a significant greater gain in lean body mass (LBM) than the 6 meal group when adjusted for gender and energy intake (p=0.04), when adjusted for gender and protein intake (p=0.03), and when adjusted for gender, protein intake, carbohydrate intake and fat intake* (p=0.01). (*: Fat intake in g/kg body weight/day showed significance on LBM, p=0.03). No significant differences in regional changes in LBM were observed, although there was a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group. There were no significant differences in change in fat mass (FM) between the groups, but a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group, 7.33% (-5.23, 19.90), p=0.24. The three meal group had a 2.87%(0.62, 5.12) larger weight gain than the six meal group, p=0.01.The participants had a 2.31% (0.83, 3.79), gain in bone mineral density of the spine during the twelve weeks of strength training, p&lt;0.01, but there were no differences between the groups. In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle gain from strength training than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. The reason why 3 meals a day was superior to 6 meals a day in this study needs further investigation. More long-term studies are needed to determine the optimal meal frequency for gain in LBM from strength training.

    If its like too much to understand, I can put it into simpler language
     
  12. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    hmmm... that's interesting that study... i keep seeing all sorts of different views on this hey... and yes... they should research WHY 3 meals worked out better, THAT would be good to know ay...
     
  13. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    I used to be in the &quot;eat more frequently&quot; camp as well.  Then I read the studies posted here and at the BodyRecomp site and I have come to realize that it doesn't matter.  Now I just drink a pre-workout shake before my early morning workout, eat a normal breakfast, lunch and dinner and I'm growing as well or better than I ever have.

    sometimes I only eat twice per day and if I know ahead of time that I will only eat twice I just eat more at each sitting....no big deal.
     
  14. <div>
    (vdk_au @ Jul. 14 2007,03:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Totentanz @ Jul. 13 2007,21:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to elaborate:  optimizing your gains is all about how many calories you eat and how you train.  Pick a non-retarded training approach, like HST.  Then make sure you are eating enough calories to gain about a pound a week.  More than that is probably going to mean a decent amount of at gain.  Less than that is probably going to mean you are cutting into possible muscle gains.
    That's about all you can do to optimize your gains, aside from taking steroids.  Tweaking your diet and doing all this crazy stuff is not going to significantly effect partitioning.  Weight lifting is mainly what is going to effect partitioning anyway.

    Fretting about when you eat something and all that is just dumb and is only going to cause you more worry than it is worth.  Refer to my first post on this matter.

    I'll explain this in rather simple terms.
    Do you REALLY think that your stomach will be empty when you take in your post-workout shake?  If you do, then something in wrong.
    Okay, so we now have established that food will be in your stomach when you are taking in your post-workout shake.  Right?  Still with me?  So...  you take in your post-workout shake.  It is now mixing with what is already in your belly.
    Care to take a wild guess as to what is probably in your belly?  You got it, protein and fats, probably some carbs too.  Fat digests the slowest, so definitely some fat, unless you are one of those weirdos who eat no fat in your diet.

    You've just added food to food.  So regardless of what ratios of what is in your post-workout shake, the ratio is going to be totally different now that it is in your body and mixing with what you ate before.

    Also, if you really need me to post the studies about meal frequency as well, I can track them down real quick.  They are all posted repeatedly on this site, so using the search function should turn them all up.</div>
    If it were all about just how many calories you consume, why not just eat McDonalds, KFC, snicker bars all day? Making sure you gain a pound a week does not mean crap all. If the majority of this weight is fat, what's the use of it? And you were saying if you're gaining less, than you're probably &quot;cutting into possible muscle gains&quot;. You do realise that everyone grows at a different rate. Just because one person isn't gaining a 1lb a week, it doesn't mean they are not making the most of the gains.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Omg, I hope you aren't going to start in with the &quot;you must eat 16 times a day or you'll gain all fat&quot; bullcrap, because I assure you, we've all seen the studies here and know that meal frequency is a crock.</div>

    So are you saying there's no difference b/w eating 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 meals a day, as long as you are consuming enough calories in a day? Why not do me a favour, and consume 2 meals a day (making sure you consume your required calorie intake), and come back to me, and tell me how it's worked for you. Oh whoops, that might just contradict what you said, better not do it!

    Anyways, I thought this site would actually be a bit more friendlier. I guess I did start off a bit rough, but there was no need for the &quot;sarcasm&quot;. I guess this we'll be the end of me here so save your fingers and don't bother to reply! laters!</div>
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If it were all about just how many calories you consume, why not just eat McDonalds, KFC, snicker bars all day?</div>

    This has been done. A guy totally debunked &quot;Supersize Me&quot; by eating only at McDonald's for a month while working out. I forget the specifics, but the guy's body composition was just fine after the experiment. Eating &quot;clean&quot; is overrated and not supported by science.
     
  15. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (vdk_au @ Jul. 14 2007,03:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why not do me a favour, and consume 2 meals a day (making sure you consume your required calorie intake), and come back to me, and tell me how it's worked for you. Oh whoops, that might just contradict what you said, better not do it!</div>
    I've already done that, while cutting last year and it worked great. I got shredded and maintained my strength.

    Partitioning is mostly about training, not diet. People grow at different rates? Not that different. Most people grow at about the same rate, when they aren't training like morons or undereating. So... whatever.

    Suffice to say, you have a lot of reading to do and I don't feel like holding your hand through it all, since you don't seem to be too keen on learning anyway. I know, pot, kettle, black. I might seem close-minded, but that's because I used to believe all the crap you are talking about until I actually starting reading things objectively.


    Simon: You think I came off as aggressive? Did you read your post where you quoted Berardi? You came off as totally condescending with what seemed like pseudo-politeness. I was merely responding in kind, sorry if I misread the tone of your post, maybe you really do talk like that. But usually what seemed like the tone of your post is what people use when they are saying &quot;okay dude, whatever.&quot;
     
  16. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Bulldog @ Jul. 14 2007,10:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now I just drink a pre-workout shake before my early morning workout, eat a normal breakfast, lunch and dinner and I'm growing as well or better than I ever have.</div>
    That's exactly what I mean.
    If you just do your diet and don't worry about meal frequency, etc, then you can focus on the more important things - like training, and you'll probably find that you get better results than you did back when you worried about every little detail.
     
  17. javacody

    javacody New Member

    Simon and vdk, seriously, <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>GO TO BODY RECOMPOSITION</span></span>, read the studies there.
     
  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    It's sort of a resilience factor, hey Tot? Our bods can make good use of a lot of stuff and at haphazard times and still come out a winner.
    However.
    IMO , eating clean will be good for longevity and long-term health, not as important for building mass, as the Totster says.
    Feeding at night before bed is not great with carbs or excessive cals, since you won't burn it sleeping. (but of course, you do burn some by digestive process and basal metabolism)
    ...and lastly, most of us are not near the genetic or physical edge that a timed nutrition or totally focused diet would make very much difference.

    Which of course, puts us back to calorie and protein counting. Easy.
     
  19. bgates1654

    bgates1654 New Member

    I jsut got wendys after my work out today. I guess I am fucked [​IMG]
     
  20. <div>
    (quadancer @ Jul. 14 2007,22:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's sort of a resilience factor, hey Tot? Our bods can make good use of a lot of stuff and at haphazard times and still come out a winner.
    However.
    IMO , eating clean will be good for longevity and long-term health, not as important for building mass, as the Totster says.
    Feeding at night before bed is not great with carbs or excessive cals, since you won't burn it sleeping. (but of course, you do burn some by digestive process and basal metabolism)
    ...and lastly, most of us are not near the genetic or physical edge that a timed nutrition or totally focused diet would make very much difference.

    Which of course, puts us back to calorie and protein counting. Easy.</div>
    Actually, carbs may be good before bed...for muscle sparing/whatever. I think it ammounts to jacksquat difference overall-the eat/not eat before bed thing, but I just thought that may be interesting to post. I think I read it in an interview with Alan Aragon(he had research regarding this).If you`re interested, I think I can dig-up that interview...I think it was in one of the BR newsletters.

    That being said, for all the optimizers:FFS ppl, are you really at that level where the 0.05% you get by having exactly 23.5g of whey+carbs with the GI of precisely 124,(5) pre/post/during sexual-intercourse....errmmm, wait that's not the topic....****...what was it....umm, yea, working-out?Because if you are, get some friggin DBol and Test, those will give you some serious edge, much more so than any pish-posh food combination/meal-repartition/blah blah blah.

    I also don`t get the point of asking a question, then starting to piss on all the answers received. If you asked it means you don't know, if you don`t know those answers may hold value, if you already know, why the heck ask?I don`t think that anyone here will get a hard-on reading Berardi and forum backed come-backs, so what's the point?
     

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