Protein Drink during training; PS changes

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy Research' started by dkm1987, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Apr 22

    Protein co-ingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance type exercise.

    Beelen M, Koopman R, Gijsen AP, Vandereyt H, Kies AK, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ.

    In contrast to the impact of nutritional intervention on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis, little is known about the potential to modulate protein synthesis during exercise. This study investigates the impact of protein co-ingestion with carbohydrate on muscle protein synthesis during resistance type exercise. Ten healthy males were studied in the evening after consuming a standardized diet throughout the day. Subjects participated in 2 experiments, in which they ingested either carbohydrate or carbohydrate with protein during a 2h resistance exercise session. Subjects received a bolus of test drink prior to and every 15 min during exercise, providing 0.15 g.kg(-1).h(-1) carbohydrate with (CHO+PRO) or without (CHO) 0.15 g.kg(-1).h(-1) protein hydrolysate. Continuous intravenous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C6]phenylalanine and L-[ring-(2)H2] tyrosine were applied, and blood and muscle biopsies were collected to assess whole-body and muscle protein synthesis rates during exercise. Protein co-ingestion lowered whole-body protein breakdown rates by 8.4+/-3.6% (P=0.066), compared to the ingestion of carbohydrate only, and augmented protein oxidation and synthesis rates by 77+/-17 and 33+/-3%, respectively (P<0.01). As a consequence, whole-body net protein balance was negative in CHO, whereas a positive net balance was achieved following the CHO+PRO treatment (-4.4+/-0.3 vs 16.3+/-0.4 micromol phe.kg(-1).h(-1), respectively; P<0.01). In accordance, mixed muscle protein fractional synthetic rate (FSR) was 49+/-22% higher following protein co-ingestion (0.088+/-0.012 and 0.060+/-0.004 %.h(-1) in CHO+PRO vs CHO treatment, respectively; P<0.05). We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein co-ingestion stimulates whole-body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance type exercise. Key words: muscle, protein synthesis, exercise, nutrition.
     
  2. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    It's studies like this that have had me starting my shake 1/2 hr. before the workout and sipping it up until the end. Thanx for verification again, Dan.
     
  3. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Da Nada
     
  4. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Apr. 25 2008,7:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's studies like this that have had me starting my shake 1/2 hr. before the workout and sipping it up until the end. Thanx for verification again, Dan.</div>
    Same here Quad/Dan.
     
  5. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    AH!!! i shall change my ways now ;) i was convinced that after a workout u need to down the stuff, sorta like puttin petrol in once it's completely empty instead of as it empties. nah that wasn't a good analogy... :S

    anyway, is there a certain amount that should be consumed before, during and after for PS? Like 1/3 before/during/after? or does it honestly not matter? [​IMG]
     
  6. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Simon,

    A few ways you could go about it.

    A protein drink before (about 30-1 hour before)

    A Protein drink during

    A Protein drink after

    I think any of the 3 or combination of the 3 is fine and more importantly one should do at least one of the 3.

    The amount varies and there is no clear cut concensus in the literature.
     
  7. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Thanks to digestion times, protein intake before covers all bases.
     
  8. nkl

    nkl Member

    I would also take the proteins before and make sure they contained essential amino acids. Also, whole milk augments amino acid uptake, compared to milk with low fat content. As long as there is plenty of amino acids there is little need for carbs, although carbs can reduce cortisol levels (but it attenuates the adrenogenic response and thus puts fat burning on hold).

    The studies below are most helpful.

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Apr;38(4):667-74. Milk ingestion stimulates net muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise. Elliot TA, Cree MG, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR, Tipton KD.

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293(3):E833-42. Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis. Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.

    Nutrition. 2006 Apr;22(4):367-75. Effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on acute hormonal response during a single bout of resistance exercise in untrained men. Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.

    Metabolism. 2006 May;55(5):570-7. Liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion during a short-term bout of resistance exercise suppresses myofibrillar protein degradation. Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
     
  9. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Hijack: The tryptophan in milk slugs down my workout, so I don't drink it before.
     
  10. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (nkl @ May 11 2008,1:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would also take the proteins before and make sure they contained essential amino acids. Also, whole milk augments amino acid uptake, compared to milk with low fat content. As long as there is plenty of amino acids there is little need for carbs, although carbs can reduce cortisol levels (but it attenuates the adrenogenic response and thus puts fat burning on hold).</div>
    which is fine if you are only looking at protein synthesis...
     
  11. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    Would be nice if there was a study done comparing food protein from meat or fish 2 hours preworkout vs. whey 30min preworkout and compared results. Even though Food won't elicit as great an increase in plasma amino acids, would be interesting if over a 12 wk period there was truly a difference in muscle growth.
     
  12. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    Dan or Aaron. Based on the study below comparing whey, casein and repeat whey (sipping whey). Looking at leucine balance, theoretically, do you think that one can get better muscle hypertrophy by mimicking this drinking whey every 1-2 hours or so? Even though 2 hour infusion of amino acids causes a reduction in response, and there is supposed to be a refractory period, leucine balance was superior in the repeat whey group.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/280/2/E340
     
  13. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Well, tehy drank it a little more often than every 1-2hrs.

    I have tried this.

    I had a giant bottle that I sat on my desk with unflavoured whey and some no-cal fruit flavouring.

    Sipped it over the course of the entire day.

    No real differences noted.

    I think the main issue is when you are looking at one fasted meal, it may make a differnece. when you are lookign at a protein rich diet, you max out most of the metabolic effects anyway.

    Amino acid work, and some animal work points towards a duration effect as well. Keeping the blood amino acids up *(like this trial) will raise protein synthesis for a couple of hours, but then it drops back down.
     
  14. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    Infusion studies show a drop in MPS after the 2 hour mark of amino acid infusion.

    Layne Norton reported preliminary research in his lab suggesting the refractory period of proteins, suggesting a rise and fall is necessary for greatest effect.

    But the RPT-Whey group sipped whey every 20min for 4 hours, and leucine balance was still greater than equal intake of protein from casein.

    And I know you've seen this one, this study shows an extra 50g EAA's (plus carbs), so obviously better muscle preservation. But looking at the individual response, the EAA supplement group showed far greater amino acid uptake in muscle vs. the higher calorie meals with equal amounts of amino acids. Figure 5.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/288/4/E761
     
  15. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (pete69 @ May 23 2008,5:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Infusion studies show a drop in MPS after the 2 hour mark of amino acid infusion.

    Layne Norton reported preliminary research in his lab suggesting the refractory period of proteins, suggesting a rise and fall is necessary for greatest effect.

    But the RPT-Whey group sipped whey every 20min for 4 hours, and leucine balance was still greater than equal intake of protein from casein.</div>
    While we cannot directly compare the two thanks to the methodological diffeerences (one is looking at muscular protein syntehsis, and the other is looking at whole body.)

    If you note on Boiries work, NOLD, or the marker they use of protein synthesis doesnt do anything, becuase their whole body model is not sensitive enough to pick that up.

    Becuase Roberts model involves biopsies and lines into lovely muscle groups, it allows to pick up the small differences at the muscular level.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And I know you've seen this one, this study shows an extra 50g EAA's (plus carbs), so obviously better muscle preservation. But looking at the individual response, the EAA supplement group showed far greater amino acid uptake in muscle vs. the higher calorie meals with equal amounts of amino acids. Figure 5.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/288/4/E761</div>

    I would guess you putting this up towards my last comment? or as evidnce for a repeat whey type setup.

    To those options, I would say

    - How representative is the control of a bbr population who get more than 0.89g/kg protein per day? Adding protein, especially 45g of EAA which is representative of around 90g normal protein (give or take) will always cause a greater net muscle balance. Looking at it from a deficiency model. If the substance is deficient in the diet, adding more will have an effect. If the substance is adequate (or substantially higher, like typical of bbrs) does adding more do anything.
     
  16. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    So are you suggesting after correcting a deficiency extra won't do crap. Next you're gonna say ZMA doesn't give steroid-like increases in testosterone like Victor Conte promised me it would.

    So clearly total protein is key. So what I want to know, in your opinion from the research you have seen, looking at the digestion rate of casein/meat vs. whey proteins is if a wanna-be bodybuilder is getting 1-1.5g protein per lb. bodyweight, based on the available research, does obsessively drinking 30-40g of whey every 3 hours, causing spikes in amino acids and not letting levels get too low, in an attempt to frequently stimulate muscle protein synthesis and get better growth or muscle preservation, make sense?? Or would you say F*** it, have your shake pre and postworkout, and just eat some steak,eggs or fish the rest of the day since it don't make no difference.
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    If i list a typical protien intake, I have a whey shake with training, whey after, then I have meat, meat, eggs whatever. and thats about it.

    I have a lot of whey available to consume, but I favour meat and stuff, cos its tasty, yo!
     
  18. nkl

    nkl Member

    Hey Pete, I think you have earned some member ratings! You have pointed, at least me, to some valuable info and brought forward interesting issues. Thanks! [​IMG]
     
  19. nkl

    nkl Member

    Oh! And a thank you goes to you Aaron as well for being a valuable resource of information (and bashing some sense into our perhaps foolhardy quests for extremes)! [​IMG]
     
  20. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    perhaps I'm reviving a long dead post here, but here goes:



    Isn't it the case that you can only utilize/absorb about 30 grams of protein per sitting?

    I've read Bryan's article on this, he seems to say that having excess amino acid floating around is in itself anabolic?!?! which I think I get...so we shouldn't worry too much about only eating 30gr per sitting

    I guess what I'm trying to get at, is what do our resident experts think is ideal, assuming one is going for maximum anabolism and as such on a 'bulk.'

    Three shakes, two, one, how much protein/carbs per shake, etc?

    I have typically gone for a quarter of my daily protein intake post workout, with 25-100 grams of ultra fuel depending on how worried I was about getting fat at the time.
     

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